Evolution Sucks!

POSTED BY: dougp59
UPDATED: Monday, July 27, 2026 16:36
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CITIZEN

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:39 AM

I'm afraid not, God must move in mysterious ways

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

PROGDEM

Thursday, January 19, 2006 7:40 AM

Sure it has. Part of the problem here is that people don't seem to be thinking too much about what it takes for X to prove Y. Go to any mathematician with a PhD, and they will show you the proof for things like that. It won't be such as to convince you of the claim 1+1=2 if you were already inclined to beleive it. More in my area of expertise, you can prove that syntactic operations like addition (x therefore x and x) preserve truth, but only by appealing to other syntactic operations. If you are in the business of questioning things like that addition rule, there will be no proof to give you, because you are choosing to not recognize the only tools by which something like a proof is possible. The same thing goes for 1+1=2. If a you get a freshman who thinks that math is all an illusion or a social construct or something, you cannot really convince him if he digs in his heels. But who cares if you do?

ARAWAEN

Friday, January 20, 2006 8:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by progdem:
More in my area of expertise, you can prove that syntactic operations like addition (x therefore x and x) preserve truth, but only by appealing to other syntactic operations.

Can you explain this sentence in a way that I, someone outside your area of expertise, can understand?

Not being snarky here, I really want to know.

Plus, I expressed doubts in the statement "General mathematics would disprove the unprovable theory (pardon the unintentional bad joke), owing to the simple fact that one plus one does equal two." due to the thirteen year old recollection of a math PhD saying that the proof for 1+1=2 was hundreds of pages long and still highly debated. My recollection could be faulty due to time, poor memory, or even having misunderstood the professor at the time.

Knowledge is sorrow; they who know the most
Must mourn the deepest o'er the fatal truth,
The Tree of Knowledge is not that of Life.
-- Byron

SIGMANUNKI

Saturday, January 21, 2006 12:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Arawaen:

due to the thirteen year old recollection of a math PhD saying that the proof for 1+1=2 was hundreds of pages long and still highly debated. My recollection could be faulty due to time, poor memory, or even having misunderstood the professor at the time.

I've been poking around this thread from time to time over the past little while. Although I have no desire to become involved in the ID debate (I tired of debating with irrational people), as someone who is mathematically inclined, I thought that I'd point out that 1 + 1 = 2 can be proven straight off the set theoretic construction of the natural numbers with one definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_numbers

Using the above, I believe this should work (hopefully I won't embarrass myself

).

We want 1 + 1 = 2

So, since 1 is the successor to 0 by definition,
1 = S(0).

Then,
1 + 1 = 1 + S(0)

But, by definition
1 + S(0) = S(1 + 0)

But, a + 0 = a by definition. So,
S(1 + 0) = S(1)

But, S(1) = 2 by definition.

Thus,
1 + 1 = 2

QED

I hope that sheds some more light on 1 + 1 = 2, as the link earlier in this thread used the Peano axioms. The above is based off the set theoretic construction (aka the standard construction) of the natural numbers.

Either way, 1 + 1 = 2 has been shown. So, could people please stop doubting that it's true please?

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

CITIZEN

Sunday, January 22, 2006 1:28 AM

I have one (1) apple. I add(get(+)) one(1) more apple.
How many apples do I have?

Exactly...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, January 22, 2006 1:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

I have one (1) apple. I add(get(+)) one(1) more apple.
How many apples do I have?

Exactly...

Um, what?

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

CITIZEN

Sunday, January 22, 2006 1:37 AM

Try it. I have one apple. I add one apple, how many apples do I have...

Proof enough no?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, January 22, 2006 2:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

Try it. I have one apple. I add one apple, how many apples do I have...

Proof enough no?

Ah, this is indeed true... for apples. But, what about for numbers in general? This is called being mathematically anal

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

CITIZEN

Sunday, January 22, 2006 11:40 AM

Since the numbers comprising the real world finite set are symbolic constructs of real world quanitities, and apples are such real world quanitities, it is mere narrow mindness that says you can't prove 1+1=2. You have to ignore the fact that they are symbolic representations of real world things, which is why why they're called real world numbers.

Now if you said -1 + -1 = -2 then you'd have something, since it's impossible, as far as we know, to have negative quantities, so the number are meaningless outside of mathematics.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

SHEPARD

Sunday, January 22, 2006 4:53 PM

Sorry, but I guess I don't get out much anymore and I live under a rock. Could you possibly enlighten me as to what the heck a "hoopy frood" is?

Read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. And bring a towel.

A few thoughts:

The 'Verse did have an intelligent designer. His name was Joss Whedon, & we all worship him.

In the RL, when people so strongly believe the universe was created by an all powerful being, why are they so arrogant as to always believe it's THEIR omnipowerful being?

I understand this is a hotbutton topic, but I do wish we could conduct our discussion in a civil manner. When we degenerate into denegration and insults, we show that designer or none, we don't come across as very intelligent.

Religion is well explained by the "God of the Gaps" theory. Basically, this states that when people were unclear on why an event or phenomena occured, they credited/blamed a higher power for it. Thus, the god(dess) made the rain come, babies be born, the sun rise and people die for no obvious reason. As humanity's knowledge grew, the gaps closed and the deific interventions grew less numerous. Cosmology, meteorology, gynecology (snicker), biology and the other sciences now explain the 'why' for a large number of previously mysterious occurrences. As our knowledge and understanding grow "God" will become less important in our understanding in the "hard" sciences and instead will focus more on the social science aspects of society, which is what religions were originally conceived to do anyway.

As for gaps, all science is a theory that could be overturned by a single event. Theoretically, the sun could rise in the West tomorrow, fire could cease to burn, and gravity could go on vacation. But I'm not going to hold my breath.

I'm going to go mix up a Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster & rewatch Serenity.

WWJD: What Would Joss Do?

Hell. It's Special.

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