Mal and his people are just low-life thieves...
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 14:32
VIEWED: 39973
PAGE 14 of 17
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I think we're arguing different things is all. I'm saying it's wrong, making no mention on whether it's justifiable. If an action is wrong it is still wrong whether or not it is justifiable. The lesser of two evils is still evil.
You seem to be saying it's justifiable whether or not it is wrong.]
We could be arguing different things. I just like to argue and hear myself talk.
Although what I'm trying to say is that Mal himself may not have seen anything wrong with what he was doing, regardless of what anyone else thinks.Quote:
That's somewhat of a murky issue though init. Mal shares the blame for putting that guy in that position, and not trying your hardest for everyone was a reason you gave for the Alliance being evil.
As a side note what I do find interesting is that some people I've seen saying euthanasia is wrong and is murder will also defend Mal's actions here, which really were euthanasia, except Mal may have been able to save that guys life. ]
It is a bit of a murky issue. I think that what Mal did for that guy was the best thing he could have done for everyone, AT THAT POINT. Besides, that guy was to blame for putting himself in that situation too. If he'd just gotten in the vault like everyone else, he would have lived. Since he didn't, the only way Mal could have saved him would likely have involved some of Mal's own crew getting killed. Mal always looks out for his own crew first. He wasn't about to let them die cuz that guy was too dumb to stay behind.
Quote:
As an aside to citizen: I very much enjoy reading your arguments and find myself nodding along. It's nice to see the things that I would vaguely think, already out there and much better phrased, hehe. ]
You coward, Agentrouka. Hiding behind Citizen's arguments, are you?
Just kidding."I'm having one of those things - a headache with pictures."
"Of course I'm right. And if I'm not, may we all be horribly crushed from above somehow."
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Quote:
Originally posted by queenofthenorth:
You coward, Agentrouka. Hiding behind Citizen's arguments, are you?
Hey, let someone have her little random and impersonal fangirling moment, will you?
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Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:Quote:
Originally posted by queenofthenorth:
You coward, Agentrouka. Hiding behind Citizen's arguments, are you?
Hey, let someone have her little random and impersonal fangirling moment, will you?
Well . . . if you must.
"I'm having one of those things - a headache with pictures."
"Of course I'm right. And if I'm not, may we all be horribly crushed from above somehow."
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Okay, I'll say it.
The surrendering soldier deserved to die. If heard by an impartial jury and judge, he'd be found guilty of murder himself, it's unfortunate that Mal was left with the unpleasant job of dispatching that shmoe. Mal didn't feel good about it, but then, he really didn't have time to feel much of anything at the moment, he had another job to do.
That's my story, I'm stickin' to it Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by FollowMal:
It's really easy to brand people crooks and brigands when you are comfortable and well fed, but when life is rough ( a rough most folks where I'm from have never seen) the rules change.
That's pretty much how I feel about it. I ain't led an easy life, but I'm damn lucky to have lived it when and where I have. I can't say with conifdence I'd've been as honorable as some given harsher circumstances.
I wish I could write well enough to write about aircraft.
-Ernest Hemingway
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OK, we are forgetting something here: context.
We are dealing with frontier justice.
We are dealing with a place and time where not too many lawyers and courts seem to exist and not a few planets have their own systems of justice (i.e. Patience's world would be different from, say, Persephone).
Frontier justice in our own American history was rough and quick and to the point. Lynching. Shooting. Gunfights. That's where we pretty much are here. And as for Mal and crew being heroes...well, folks, sometimes being a hero has nothing to do with rescuing small children from burning houses and such. Sometimes it is just managing to live through another day with your sanity and your honor code intact. We do it every day, we are all faced with choices where we can choose to do the honest thing or the easy one.
I suspect Mal, in harboring River and Simon even though it would make more financial and practical sense to turn them over to the Alliance, is truly heroic by a lot of definitions regardless.
"Do not go gentle into that good night....
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. . .
Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night. . ."
--Dylan Thomas
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Quote:You're reaching here Citizen. I watched and paused to study it last night; even if what was on the ground was half of the original ship, it's still a fighter-sized craft, not even half the size of Serenity.
Originally posted by citizen:
The ship looks like it was at least the size of Serenity, which is large enough to have a galley. You don't know what he did, I don't know what he did, and Mal didn't know what he did. He shot him for wearing an Alliance uniform.
Also, what we have here is what I call the 'Dirty Harry Syndrome'. Do we want cops walking around with that kind of power? The ability to be like Judge Dredd? Obviously not.
But the particular and precise circumstances privy to us through the movie medium show us actions that are just and/or understandable by the hero, and if events were to play out similarly in real life, a court would dismiss any charges against him.
We can never know everything about real-life events, but in this case, knowing most of the facts, we can say Mal did no wrong in shooting that pilot/gunner/stowaway boyscout- whatever he was.
Can we agree that that man's appearance at that time was adding an element of possible danger to the crew had he been allowed to take up their time with the tying up and lookin' after and tending to, taking at least one of them out of action for the urgent work needed for their escape from Haven and such?
Chrisisall, trying to make sense
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If loving The Crew is wrong I don't wanna be right
If being right means being without The Crew I'd rather be wrong during life
Your mama and daddy say it's a shame, it's a down right disgrace
but 'long as I got The Crew by my side I don't care what Those people say
Your friends tell The Crew it's no future in loving a married man
if I can't see The Crew when I want I'll see The Crew when I can
Chorus
If loving The Crew is wrong I don't wanna be right
If loving The Crew is wrong I don't wanna be right
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Chris:
Look at the size of the wreckage compared to the guy crawling out of it. There's easily enough room for two decks in there, fighters aren't that big. It's closer in size to Serenity than it is to a fighter. In fact it doesn’t look too far of the size of a Second World War U-Boat.
Quote:
Originally posted by Chrisisall:
But the particular and precise circumstances privy to us through the movie medium show us actions that are just and/or understandable by the hero, and if events were to play out similarly in real life, a court would dismiss any charges against him.
I think I've already shown that his action constitute a war crime under the Geneva Convention, so today if he was put on trial for a comparable action then he wouldn't be let of if there was no doubt that he had done it.
Quote:
We can never know everything about real-life events, but in this case, knowing most of the facts, we can say Mal did no wrong in shooting that pilot/gunner/stowaway boyscout- whatever he was.
So if an Alliance officer had turned up after Serenity crashes on Mr Universe's planet, and shot Mal as he left the ship everyone would recognise that there was nothing wrong with that?
Quote:
Can we agree that that man's appearance at that time was adding an element of possible danger to the crew had he been allowed to take up their time with the tying up and lookin' after and tending to, taking at least one of them out of action for the urgent work needed for their escape from Haven and such?
We can't agree that either I'm afraid. It would have taken nothing to incapacitate him and leave him on the planet.
It doesn't matter what the motivations are for doing something that is wrong, it's still wrong, murder doesn't become right whether it's because you got up that morning and gosh darn it felt like killing someone, or if they were threatening your life, it becomes justifiable. Like I said, Mal may have been justified in killing the officer, I'm not arguing that either way, I just don't like the moral relativism of, “since our side (the crew) did it, it must be right”. If that had been a comparable scene from the unification war and an Alliance officer had shot some independent I'm willing to bet people would be saying: “see, see, the Alliance is evil, they shot an injured and surrendering soldier!”
It's the same thing as when people cheer on the valiant Air Force for levelling some sector of Baghdad, saying 'well civilian casualties are to be expected' but denigrate anyone who is 'evil' enough to kill westerners. Something is wrong whether it is done by the hero or the villain.
Quote:
The surrendering soldier deserved to die. If heard by an impartial jury and judge, he'd be found guilty of murder himself, it's unfortunate that Mal was left with the unpleasant job of dispatching that shmoe. Mal didn't feel good about it, but then, he really didn't have time to feel much of anything at the moment, he had another job to do.
Just remember the implications of that statement, because it means that it wouldn’t be wrong for an Iraqi to kill you or me. We’re complicit in the deaths of innocent Iraqis, even if we didn’t support the war in Iraq. So back to my original question:
If an American or British Aircraft is brought down in Iraq, irregardless of whether the pilot should expect to be killed do they deserve it?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.
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Quote:It would depend upon whether they had just been targeting and killing defenseless civilians, if so, then yes (My appologies to Mr. Collateral Damage).
Originally posted by citizen:
So back to my original question:
If an American or British Aircraft is brought down in Iraq, irregardless of whether the pilot should expect to be killed do they deserve it?
There has to be some responsibility at the action level.
And the fighter weren't that big
Chrisisall
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