What are your thoughts on god? Part 3

POSTED BY: christhecynic
UPDATED: Sunday, January 22, 2006 06:51
VIEWED: 16563
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HEB

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 11:01 PM

See the thing is, for me, having not had a spiritual experience all I can go on is the historical evidence. You say 'for that you need faith' but that faith has to come from somewhere. Why have faith in the bible rather than the Koran? It seems like there are two ways you can get that faith in a religious book - through a spiritual experience pointing you towards it, or through believing what it says on the
basis that you think it's an accurate document. If you conclude that you belive in a God how do you decide you believe a particular document is the word of that God?

Some of this may come across as rhetorical but I am genuinely asking these questions.

Changing topic:

Are there a lot of historical documents that mention the resurrection? I only really know of a Josephus mention of Jesus and I think it was admitted that the passage on him being more than a man was unlikely to have been written by Josephus?

...................
Well, my sister's a ship... we had a
complicated childhood
.................
I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

CARTOON

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 11:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Sorry to be bit of a bore, but what exactly is the purpose of this thread? I'm not in any way offended by this topic, I'm just curious.

Didnt you have a part 1 and 2 of this topic? Did you not obtain the information that you sought when you started it, or is this a food-for-thought sort of thread, where you are attempting to get us to seek god or something?

Well, I can't speak as to the purpose of this thread, as I didn't start it. Chris would have to speak up here.

Speaking as to my participation in this thread, I believe I've covered as much near the end of my last post. I, like others in this thread, initially stated my beliefs. Any additional postings on my part was in response to (or a comment about) another posting.

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
If it is the latter, trust me, god will plague us all one way or another until we hit the grave, through people and things; for all there is no escape which is rather sad because some of us want to escape.

Also, as I've said in my previous post (which was posted after you posted your question), I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone. I don't think anyone in this thread is. I think the various views of belief and unbelief have been very civil. And while I'm sure there are those who blatantly disagree with me (as I do with them), I don't see them trying to persuade me (nor am I trying to persuade them) -- we are merely stating our thoughts on this matter.

And while I won't push my beliefs on anyone, I know what helped (and still helps me) when I feel that way, and I hope that things will soon look brighter for you.

CARTOON

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 11:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by heb:
Are there a lot of historical documents that mention the resurrection? I only really know of a Josephus mention of Jesus and I think it was admitted that the passage on him being more than a man was unlikely to have been written by Josephus?

Jesus is mentioned in the writings of Josephus -- which, as far as I know, were indeed written by Josephus.

Several years ago I read something about Jesus which was allegedly written by some Roman official back to his superior in Rome, which contemporaneously described Jesus (even physically).

While that alleged document is very complementary to Jesus, and goes as far as endorsing Biblical claims as anyone could even hope for from a non-biblical, secular source (and who among us wouldn't like an actual physical description of Jesus -- just out of curiosity), I don't put too much credence in the report. My personal belief is that it's a forgery.

I'm not aware of any others. Not saying they're not out there. I just haven't run across any to the best of my recollection. Sorry.

P.S. I used to have the complete works of Josephus. (Alas, no more.) I sort of recall Josephus mentioning that it was "reported" (or some such) that Jesus rose from the dead. I wish I had it, to check. My memory isn't a shadow of what it used to be.

OAK

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 11:59 PM

I tend to believe in things I can see. The Sun is our Father and the Earth is our Mother.

HEB

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:03 AM

So I'm not sure I understand what you were saying earlier. Are you saying that the supporting evidence for the bible on events other than the ressurection verifies its accuracy and so you also believe it on the issue of the resurrection even if that event itself isn't supported by other evidence?

I'm off to bed now I'm afraid so wont be able to reply till tomorrow but this discussion has been really interesting thanks.

Heb

...................
Well, my sister's a ship... we had a
complicated childhood
.................
I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

CARTOON

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by heb:
So I'm not sure I understand what you were saying earlier. Are you saying that the supporting evidence for the bible on events other than the ressurection verifies its accuracy and so you also believe it on the issue of the resurrection even if that event itself isn't supported by other evidence?

We keep this up, and Chris is going to kick us out of here.

He's already irritated with me for that business with QOTN.

To clarify (at your request), I do believe there's enough historical evidence to support belief in the general verity of the authencity of the Scriptures (both Hebrew & Greek). Historical evidence, however, does little to support the verity of the accounts in scripture, which I take mostly on faith.

The same applies to my belief in the resurrection. There are bits and pieces of evidence as well as circumstantial evidence, etc. (see Strobel's book for specifics), which support a secular, non-biblical basis to believe it happened, but they are not the primary reason I believe it to be true (which is faith).

If you require additional clarification, please contact me, as not to completely bore everyone else in here to death with my attempts at an explanation of what I believe and why.

Quote:
Originally posted by heb:
I'm off to bed now I'm afraid so wont be able to reply till tomorrow but this discussion has been really interesting thanks.

You're welcomed.

Chris, if this keeps up, we may need another chapter...

Sorry.

AERIN

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Sorry to be bit of a bore, but what exactly is the purpose of this thread?

I can't say why Chris started this thread, but I suspect it's the same reason I like reading it. I find it profoundly interesting to read what other people think on this topic, especially considering there are contributers from multiple contries. In this supportive, non-threatening venue people can write what they actually believe (I hope).

It's also a way to get to know people that seems less creepy than your average chat room, since we're all Browncoats. I think this is why there are threads relating to how you picked your name or what you do for a living. Such a diverse crowd.

Quote:
If it is the latter, trust me, god will plague us all one way or another until we hit the grave, through people and things; for all there is no escape which is rather sad because some of us want to escape.

Regardless of what you believe about god, I hope you realize there are lots of people on this site that care about you and are worried about you.

RIVER6213

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:43 AM

Now THAT is something I find rather difficult to stomach, but it does sound nice, too bad its not true.

National anthems, and good speeches are great, beautiful, wonderful, and on the whole, full of hope. They sound good, and they provoke emotions. You want it all to be true, in your heart of hearts you want them to be true, but in reality, they are not.

This is how I view the human animal...good intentions, but in the end, they fail all, and one ends up sitting in the corner of their room, on the floor in the fetal position, with their thumb in their mouth saying: "Two by two, hands of blue, two by two, hands of blue..."

I had a point to make somewhere in all of this...

CHOPPYBADGER

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:17 AM

Well all I can say is I have no idea.
If there is such a thing I very much doubt it can be singularly labeled 'God'. I have never been one for Churches, Hymns, and this Worshippy slop. It never felt natural. Nearly all my uncles were preachers and all that good stuff. Never thought it right to grovel around. I personally think if something supernatural exists that created the Universe exists, it is something so large and powerful, it can not be labeled with a word, it is something that you know but you can not ever figure out a word to describe it. Labeling this something 'God' is kind of naive to me. Perhaps a throw-back to ancient times where humans' lives were held up by a thread. People were simple and rightfully scraped up the most hope they could get to live on and try to make a better world. Of course this simple and rational thing got the interests of people wanting to use this faith for their benefit. Throw in a few thousand years or so and you got religions and ideals of today. I personally think religions have been over-evolved. No one ever stops and ponders the basest ideals. That is where my thoughts on things came from, being smothered with all that religious mumbo-jumbo really got me thinking out of sheer spite. And what I found out is, it can not be explained in words, it can only be discovered yourself, through questioning everything we do as a society and a race. Does a mystical power exist beyond our plane of existence? Well heck if I know, if I could find out, I would not get much out of it, I couldn't explain it well, I probably couln't even truly comprehend it. For all we know, it might not be sentient, perhaps so powerful, sentience would be a waste for it. But people don't like thinking for themselves, they want an easy way out, even if it ends up being the hard way in the end. I think a great example of it is Bhuddhism. Though I am going from memory so it could be wrong. Bhuddha basically questioned everything that others took for granted and was able to simplify his life to the most basic thing a human needs, at least he thought he achieved it. What happened after? I remember hearing that Buddha did not want to be worshipped as a God since he knew he was just an enlightened man. But look what happened, Bhuddha did become a God because people don't want to simply give up all their needs, they want someone to tell them that someone or something is their God and they will be rewarded by worshipping it. Seriously, if you just do as good as humanly possible, help build a better world for the future of humanity, and live life to the fullest, you would not need to fear death or worry if you are going to live your afterlife in misery, because you did what you thought was best and had a full, happy life. Once you do this, these God and religion questions become irrelevant. That is my thoughts on the matter.

[IMG][/IMG]
Heresy grows from Grottiness...

RIVER6213

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:44 AM

When you break it all down to its most basic form, People just want to feel like they belong to something, and are useful, and are loved, liked, and respected, without conditions. And they also want to have something to offer.

Our parents, parents delivered sin and evil to our mothers and fathers....most likely we shall, or have already, delivered sin and evil to our children, and they shall in turn deliver evil unto their children... and so on, and so on...

Welcome to the Earth that currently is.

Bruce Wayne: "You kinda got a dark side to you don't you?"

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