Real world relevence of science fiction and the Whedon-'verse

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Friday, January 20, 2006 16:58
VIEWED: 7719
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SIGNYM

Monday, January 16, 2006 5:37 PM

A couple of comments from (ahem!) left field.

The scifi I grew up with had an essential optimism. Space travel and technology were going to lead to new landscapes, personal and otherwise. (If you can find it read short story "The Widget, the Wadget, and Boff". I think you'll like it.) Over time scifi became darker- apocalyptic, with no sense of progress, hopeless, and cynical. Joss continues that apocalyptic view. I find it troubling, because there is no hope in our world view anymore, just anxiety and fear. People who do not hope will not change things.

The other aspect of Joss' arc that I find troubling is his reliance on individual heroes. That is the happy ending in every myth, movie, and fairy tale since whenever: Hercules or our Fairy Godmother will come to save us. I was initially attracted to FF because the characters seemed like real people- maybe with more drive and ethics that usual, but basically normal people - surviving in a tough tough world. But with STM he tossed that out the window in favor of Buffy In Space. So, are we supposed to wait for a renegade from MK ULTRA to save us? How dis-empowering and unrealistic is that? You can't get a movement off the ground without a paradigm shift, and that has to engage a significant portion of the population, not just the best pilot, geek, tactician, and warrior in the solar system.

Finally- whatever victory we average people have- if we are to have any- will be economic not military. I know explosions are necessary for the movie-going public (a sign of how stupid we are) but a military win isn't going to mean much if the same old same old continues- people who control the money have used yet another war to make yet more money. We have to fundamentally stop accepting monsters in our midst and then expecting to be rescued by mythical heroes, and we have to devise a sysem that stops creating and rewarding these monsters.

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This isn't why I call Cheney et al neo-socialists, but it's one of the signs that they haven't changed their stripes since they were calling themselves 'Trotsky Socialists.' Back in those days Max told Dick and Bill about this great plan of corporatism and how it fit into the grand scheme.

Max????

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Finally, corporations aren't good, and they're nto evil, they're just one way for people to organize. If those people are evil, the result will be bad. Fortunately, most people are good, and corporations tend to lend themselves in a better overall direction than govts.

DT, this is where we fundamentally disagree. Organizations are not simply a way for people to organize, and they are not the averaged value of individuals. Organzations have their own lifespans, goals, competitors, "food", and principles of operation.

Bureaucracies are a good example of organizational sentience, and corporations are another, and they move in ways that are beyond the sum of their individuals. Let me give you an example: Let's say DoGood Inc. has a well-intentioned Board of Directors. They pay better than avergae wages, shell out for pollution control, conduct "blue-sky" research, and are the first to advance into opening markets (like hybrid cars). Where do you think they'll be in five years? Most likely they will be swallowed up by Ruthless Inc. Even well-intentioned corporations have to respond to pressures brought to bear by other corporations that flog their fully-depreciated equipment (and technologies) an order of magnitude past its lifetime (piling up sheer profit), and similarly flog the environment, employees, and consumers and using its profits to bribe governments and coercively expand.

BTW- I think the fault here is with the mechanism of the stock market- DoGood Inc could continue to exist and even thrive with it's long-term plan if it were privately held, but if it's owned by stockholders and the stock doesn't perform well, then the Board will be turned out. This is ONE free market that does more harm than good.

IF you were to describe an orgnizational psychopath- out for itself, with n

SIGNYM

Monday, January 16, 2006 5:42 PM

RE MAX: Oh, I see your later reference. I'll have to look him up. I thought it was Strauss.

---------------------------------
Please don't think they give a shit.

SIGNYM

Monday, January 16, 2006 5:57 PM

Quote:
Anyway, this last link is a forum topic: a sharing of personal triggers from very ill people.

Hey, this is my other internet home. Looks like you found my hangout!

http://brain.hastypastry.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=109

LIMINALOSITY

Monday, January 16, 2006 6:59 PM

I'm in conduit mode at the moment, so I'm hearing this a lot.
One of the google searchs I used presented links to threads on a number of sites regarding triggers for people afflicted with some wretched thing.
Do you have a sick little one SignyM?

Shiny Trees! Yavanna made Shiny Trees!
Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

SIGNYM

Monday, January 16, 2006 7:38 PM

Yes, we sure do. I actually found the correct dx and rx on that website although we had gone to top-notch docs in our area. One thing I have to say about the internet- parents talking to parents have REALLY pushed doctors from the bottom up. "You can't stop the signal" is real, altho I tend to look at is as collective wisdom of the internet.

---------------------------------
Please don't think they give a shit.

LIMINALOSITY

Monday, January 16, 2006 8:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Yes, we sure do. I actually found the correct dx and rx on that website although we had gone to top-notch docs in our area. One thing I have to say about the internet- parents talking to parents have REALLY pushed doctors from the bottom up. "You can't stop the signal" is real, altho I tend to look at is as collective wisdom of the internet.

I worked with parents adopting severe special needs children, so I have seen this miracle of connection in action. The internet is an amazing tool, and I really enjoy talking with people from Jordan, Tokyo etc. I think the net is one vector/tool for the paradigm shift we need that you mention here...
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
People who do not hope will not change things.
The other aspect of Joss' arc that I find troubling is his reliance on individual heroes.

I think our hope is in our ability to connect with one another, and that what Joss is saying is that each of us has both the power and the responsibility to be Mal.
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But with STM he tossed that out the window in favor of Buffy In Space.
At the end of Buffy...
Select to view spoiler:
any girl who might have chosen to be a slayer was gifted that power.

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So, are we supposed to wait for a renegade from MK ULTRA to save us? You can't get a movement off the ground without a paradigm shift, and that has to engage a significant portion of the population, not just the best pilot, geek, tactician, and warrior in the solar system.
I think we are creating that paradigm shift right now, and I think some of it is happening right here at FFF.
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We have to fundamentally stop accepting monsters in our midst and then expecting to be rescued by mythical heroes, and we have to devise a sysem that stops creating and rewarding these monsters.
IF you were to describe an orgnizational psychopath- out for itself, with no remorse or limits- it would be the corporation.
So what if the CEO were accountable for the organization? I'd like that.

Shiny Trees! Yavanna made Shiny Trees!
Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

CHRISISALL

Monday, January 16, 2006 8:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

I was initially attracted to FF because the characters seemed like real people- maybe with more drive and ethics that usual, but basically normal people - surviving in a tough tough world. But with STM he tossed that out the window in favor of Buffy In Space. So, are we supposed to wait for a renegade from MK ULTRA to save us? How dis-empowering and unrealistic is that? You can't get a movement off the ground without a paradigm shift, and that has to engage a significant portion of the population, not just the best pilot, geek, tactician, and warrior in the solar system.

While I agree about the 'One Hero in all the Land' BS that creeps into every movie (I hated that Neo was 'The One'), I have to say at least in Serenity, Mal didn't save the day entirely. What did he really accomplish?
1) He MAY have gotten the Alliance to ease up a bit on the River thing...and not all by himself.
2) He enabled a paradigm shift in the Operative.
3) Most of his crew lived (again, not all due to Mal's heroic efforts).
4) Mal found his belief (in himself).

Not exactly the work of Hercules or even James Kirk.
The Alliance won't be brought down by the Miranda broadcast, the proper spin will ensure that.
And another piece fell off his ship, even after the fix.

Still real people as far as I can tell...

What do ya say?

Like a Reaver in an Executive Boardroom Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Monday, January 16, 2006 10:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
We've all been omitting someone. I feel foolish now.

Saffron is the hands down, err.. hands on... um, the winner.

Shes really nice in person as well.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:56 AM

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The scifi I grew up with had an essential optimism. Space travel and technology were going to lead to new landscapes, personal and otherwise. (If you can find it read short story "The Widget, the Wadget, and Boff". I think you'll like it.) Over time scifi became darker- apocalyptic, with no sense of progress, hopeless, and cynical. Joss continues that apocalyptic view. I find it troubling, because there is no hope in our world view anymore, just anxiety and fear. People who do not hope will not change things.

You'll love the stuff I write then. You think joss is too dark?!!? Huh. I find the difficult this is I think he's too light. He's not in the all hall monitor boyscout cardboard fantasy star trek world, but still, joss could seriously take several steps towards wes craven and I wouldn't object.

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The other aspect of Joss' arc that I find troubling is his reliance on individual heroes. That is the happy ending in every myth, movie, and fairy tale since whenever: Hercules or our Fairy Godmother will come to save us. I was initially attracted to FF because the characters seemed like real people- maybe with more drive and ethics that usual, but basically normal people - surviving in a tough tough world. But with STM he tossed that out the window in favor of Buffy In Space. So, are we supposed to wait for a renegade from MK ULTRA to save us? How dis-empowering and unrealistic is that? You can't get a movement off the ground without a paradigm shift, and that has to engage a significant portion of the population, not just the best pilot, geek, tactician, and warrior in the solar system.

I really agree. I would quibble about one thing. I don't think river is buffy, I think she's more like faith, or dark willow, so the story lacks a reliable superhero, but it is in danger of becoming crusaders for justice, and the eternal happy ending and fairy godmother deus ex machina, all of that, why should I go on you already put it so well.

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Finally- whatever victory we average people have- if we are to have any- will be economic not military. I know explosions are necessary for the movie-going public (a sign of how stupid we are) but a military win isn't going to mean much if the same old same old continues- people who control the money have used yet another war to make yet more money. We have to fundamentally stop accepting monsters in our midst and then expecting to be rescued by mythical heroes, and we have to devise a sysem that stops creating and rewarding these monsters.

As a Taoist I don't believe in victory. Victory is a sign of defeat. If you press your own position so far that you break the will of your opponent, you have lost. The object is to win agreement, reach consensus, make peace, not to oppress others to your will or clone yourself. I don't usually spout views at people, but this one is so at odds with typical western philosophy I thought maybe there were folks who hadn't heard it. I guess I believe a military victory would mean nothing. But I agree, we reward monsters, and by defining things in terms of victory, we keep the line open for 100% win for the monsters, old ones, new ones, even us *as* monsters. Two things I think about the alliance offhand: 1. Mal should find some acceptance from the people that he is right and the alliance must end, in the form of some sort of underground. This defiance is proof enough, but without this moral support he just become a guy who doesn't like some of the things it has done, but not a righteous man. 2. The best weapon to fight something like the alliance is corruption. Yeah, I'm standing up for corruption here, esp. the kind that runs rampant, because nothing tears a society down faster. It was corruption that stopped the USSR, corruption is bringing down Tom Delay and corruption will some day kill the communist govt. in China. Mal should have people on the inside faithfully ascending the ranks.

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Max????

Ah, these are the moments to cherish *evil grin*
If you don't know, I welcome you to a

FARAMOND

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:36 PM

Regarding the "dark" science-fiction versus the "optimistic" side...

I think a while back, some scientists promised us that science would provide everything for us: moral compass, fulfillment, etc. Perhaps the "trekker/trekkie" stuff is on the out and the Joss stuff is on the in because...science did NOT provide what was promised [I think it was a naive and illogical promise anyway]. Instead what we have is people injecting pig fetuses with jellyfish dna to produce glow-in-the-dark swine, [?!!] or the whole genetically modified foodstuffs that give you tumors. Science is like Mathematics; there IS no moral compass there.

"....also, I can kill you with my brain."

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