Faster Than Light

POSTED BY: AnthonyT
UPDATED: Monday, August 2, 2004 20:22
VIEWED: 19488
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JAVIDRHO

Friday, August 1, 2003 5:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptBaggytrousers:
Okay, I won't even try to come up with a workable theory here, but I want to point out once again that in Out of Gas, when the atmo and propulsion are out, there are still some lights and a working beacon (back-up battery, probably), but the gravity is also still on. The ship in Bushwhacked also had working gravity.

If I were any more than a layman I would try to tie this and the propulsion issue together, perhaps by suggesting the Firefly transport afterburner is coupled with some kind of gravitational slingshot effect.

You know, it's a common thing in TV-based science fiction to have artificial gravity and life support completely separate from the main drive.
Partly this is a practical matter, since it is expensive to have people float on TV, but also, it makes sense to separate them if you can in the "real" world. Either another power source drives them, or some form of battery backup (as was mentioned before).

What I was thinking of, is trying to come up with a completely new form of movement that does not require the ship to be special. In other words, any space ship can travel between the stars using this. A "jump gate" is one simple solution, but there must be many other great ideas waiting to be discovered. We just have to "think outside the box" as people "who are annoying" often say.

One clue might be seen in "Serenity", when they pass the Reavers ship. Does anyone else wonder why they pass so damn slowely? It looks like you could get out and walk faster. Maybe they were inside some sort of hyperspace tunnel (like Babylon-5) and that is also why they passed so close to each other. Maybe they really do use hyperspace tunnels (jump gate driven or warp drive) but it would be interesting to try to come up with a 3rd idea...

----------------
SIMON: What happens if they board us?
ZOE: If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins into their clothing
and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order.

WHOODAHN

Friday, August 1, 2003 7:30 PM

Don't forget that they can land and take off without anyone strapping in during acceleration. They can do a Crazy Ivan and just hang onto a bulkhead. They can even take a load of cattle into space without strapping them down. It's not only gravity plates, it's anti-gravity plates.

HOTHERSALE

Friday, August 1, 2003 9:14 PM

You gotta love the vagaries and inconsistencies of SF shows like Firefly.

I particularly enjoyed how slowly Serenity and the Reaver ship appeared to be traveling when they first crossed paths in the pilot episode. Made them look like they were going about 50 mph. The artisitic license made for a very cool shot, however.

I for one am thankful that they haven't gone out of their way to explain the technology more than they have. When shows do that kinda thing, it often comes across as unnecessary exposition. I'm sure we would have slowly learned more about their 'verse as the storyline required it, but not before.

________________________

Live life with Blue Sun!

DRAKON

Saturday, August 2, 2003 9:48 AM

"So, I propose that the science-minded among us
try to figure out another way to move between solar systems that does not require warp drives or jump gates."

The jump gates I will give you, as that is an external device. But why no warp drive? There is no evidence to suggest there is no FTL travel. Just none to suggest there is, (except the obvious size stuff we have talked about earlier)

The distance between stars is simply too vaste. Its 5 light YEARS to the next star. If you travelling slower than light, then its gonna take longer.

Right now, I don't see any way of doing this, in the time alloted without some form of FTL travel. And I don't see any other way of doing this than by warp drive (metric engineering) which is not the voodoo science it was thought to be not that long ago.

"my kind of stupid"

JAVIDRHO

Tuesday, August 5, 2003 12:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Drakon:
"So, I propose that the science-minded among us
try to figure out another way to move between solar systems that does not require warp drives or jump gates."

The jump gates I will give you, as that is an external device. But why no warp drive? There is no evidence to suggest there is no FTL travel. Just none to suggest there is, (except the obvious size stuff we have talked about earlier)

The distance between stars is simply too vaste. Its 5 light YEARS to the next star. If you travelling slower than light, then its gonna take longer.

Right now, I don't see any way of doing this, in the time alloted without some form of FTL travel. And I don't see any other way of doing this than by warp drive (metric engineering) which is not the voodoo science it was thought to be not that long ago.

"my kind of stupid"

Drakon,
Please note that I did not say, "no FTL drives" - I said no "warp" drive. My point is that we should try to imagine something new instead of trying to fit old and overused SF technology (warp drive and jump gates) into this new and innovative show.

For example, off the top of my head, lets say you have ships diving into the center of the sun to "jump" between solar systems. You could invent a theory that postulates the existence of something similar to a small wormhole at the center of all medium-sized stars, which interconnects them to other nearby stars. I would invent another term though, since "wormhole" is also overused.

This idea is similar to a jump gate but requires no external "gate." All you need is a ship that can withstand the intense heat, pressure, and gravity for a few minutes, and a good navigational system to steer the ship to the exact center of the star. For plot purposes, it has the advantage of keeping you from simply warping away from the bad guys (too easy) or requiring a Gate that would be owned and controlled by the Alliance (too restrictive).

So, you fly around a solar system using conventional propulsion, then when a job comes along that requires you to go to a different system, you lock everything down and head towards the sun. Your angle of approach towards the sun determines which nearby star you will jump to, so you lock in the navigation and hope for the best. Right before you enter the sun's outer corona, you hit full burn and blast your way into the center. A few minutes later (if all goes well) you emerge on the far side of a different sun and a whole new system of planets.

Jumping between systems would be more expensive (extra fuel used in hard burn, extra energy for gravity drive to protect you from the sun, etc) and dangerous (interior of stars are nasty places if something goes wrong) so you would try to get work inside each of the systems when ever possible.

This is only one example and I just made it up.
Anyone else care to try?

----------------
SIMON: What happens if they board us?
ZOE: If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins into their clothing
and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order.

DRAKON

Tuesday, August 5, 2003 1:50 PM

That is the point I was trying to make. Warp drive may be cliche, but then so are wings on an airplane. Right now that is the only way I can see of reaching FTL speeds.

It does not need to postulate a host of unknown or doubtful things, such as wormholes in the center of stars. It is possible within existing theories, and has changed to an engineering problem rather than a theoretical one.

That is what Alcubierre's paper did, was to get people to think in such a manner and destroy the whole "FTL is impossible under General Relativity" meme.

Short of some form of metric engineering, I don't see how you are going to overcome the limitation that relativity poses. I don't see how you can escape from relativity, so why not use it to your advantage?

For plot purposes, warping away from the bad guys is not so much an option as they would have identical technology too.

Perhaps I am looking at it differently. I can see how Alcubierre's paper, and the several papers based on it, can work. And would like to someday have my own ship and zoom around the galaxy. (I know that is crazy, but let me tell you about these two crazy bicycle mechanics from Ohio one of these days) It fits. And partially because I see this as one good solution, I have trouble looking for another.

"my kind of stupid"

JAVIDRHO

Tuesday, August 5, 2003 3:09 PM

Drakon,
I used to work for LANL and I read the papers too (I was actually the first here to post the LANL papers on another thread). I didn't want to get into a discussion of the merits of the paper - my goal was just to bring up other "new" ideas. If you want to stay with the warp bubble idea for Firefly, that's great.
Only Joss knows what they really used (and maybe we will when the movie comes out)
JR

If any others want to discuss the paper with Drakon, jump in now (it is a worthy subject).

----------------
SIMON: What happens if they board us?
ZOE: If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins into their clothing
and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order.

THEROGUEROOSTER

Thursday, August 7, 2003 4:13 PM

I thought I'd introduce myself to the community and muddy the water of this discussion by throwing my own 2 cents into the pot.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheObsoleteMan:
- The concept of "inner core" or "central" planets and "the outer rim" suggests one solar system. If we're talking about multiple systems, there's no reason why the privileged planets should be at the center--our own sun is on the edge of our Galaxy--it would take much longer to reach the center of our Galaxy, if we left Earth, than other stars nearby. If we went to a new galaxy, the outer edges would be more accessible than the interior. And going to a new galaxy, as in the phrase "A whole new galaxy of Earths", makes little sense. The nearest galaxy is the Andromeda galaxy, 2 million light years away. Surely there are many stars with planets in our own Milky Way much, much closer.

There's no reason why the core worlds have to be situated near the center of a solar system or the center of a galaxy. The central planets could simply be those situated near the center of colonized space, while the outer rim lies along its edges. Or, if humanity only expanded out in one direction, perhaps the core worlds are those nearest the "Earth That Was."

I'm also perfectly willing to believe that the FTL technology in Firefly is based upon principles of science as of yet undiscovered in modern science. There's no reason why FTL has to be done with warp drives or hyperspace or wormholes or with any other 20th/21st century notions of space travel. After all, the show takes place 500 years in the future, which is an incredibly long time when thinking about technological and scientific advancement. Just look at our scientific knowledge of space today and compare it to our knowledge 500 years ago, when Copernicus was tinkering around with the novel concept that perhaps the earth revolved around the sun and not the other way around.

If I had to vote on it, I'd say that the show spans multiple star systems. As for how the Serenity travels between them, I am of the opinion that her side thrusters are used for atmospheric flight and attitude control, while her "Firefly" drive pushes her along at FTL speeds. (Yes, I know that the term Firefly typically refers to the class of ship and not its propulsion system -- I am using it here to describe the part of the ship that gives the Firefly class its designation, namely the aft section of the ship that "lights up like a Firefly" when engaging in FTL speeds.) Once Wash points the ship in a direction and kicks the Firefly drive in gear, they travel along a straight line toward their destination. Any course corrections needed are accomplished by reorienting the ship via its side thrusters and punching the Firefly drive again.

Anyway, that's it. You guys have a great community here and I am right there with the bunch of you with my fingers crossed, hoping against hope that the crew of the Serenity gets another chance to keep her flying.

-tRR

ANTHONYT

Thursday, August 7, 2003 10:36 PM

Hi all,

I keep hearing about particles that exist in our universe that naturally traverse the 'speed of light' barrier.

Can anyone talk about these particles and tell us how they do what they do? Perhaps if we can come to an understanding of things in nature that cross the light barrier, then we can begin to understand how to simulate it.

--Anthony

DRAKON

Friday, August 8, 2003 11:03 AM

I think you are referrring to "tacyons" Here is how (I think) it works.

Special relativity says that mass goes up as an object travels closer and closer to the speed of light. At SOL, or c, the mass is infinite. But after that???

The formula for computing the mass of a particle is dependent on comparing its velocity (which is relative) to c (which is constant for all inertial reference frames) SQRT(C^2 - V^2)

What is the square root of a negative number?

If it has any physical meaning, then there should be particles who travel faster than light. One of the cool things is that if you try to remove energy from them, they get faster. They never cross the light barrier, but are trapped going faster, if they exist at all.

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