Evolution Sucks!

POSTED BY: dougp59
UPDATED: Monday, July 27, 2026 16:36
VIEWED: 32323
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AERIN

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 8:44 PM

I'm a scientist and I'm trying to keep an open mind. Everything I read about either Creationism or Intelligent Design is usually all about perceived problems with evolution, with very little support for ID. The absence of information about the theory of Intelligent Design has left me with some questions.

1) What is the difference between Intelligent Design and Creationism (assuming there is one)? The only way I can see a difference is if Intelligent Design does not depend upon a religious text. In this manner, one is not constrained by Genesis when trying to determine the age of the earth or the origin of fossils. Intelligent Design could then be fully compatible with evolution, supposing the Designer(s) set evolution in motion. Under this definition, I find Intelligent Design a very cool philosophical question. However, since only Creationism is inconsistent with evolution, why would supporters of Intelligent Design be so anti-evolution?

2) What is the evidence in support of Intelligent Design? Note, problems with the theory of evolution are not support for Intelligent Design. Something like a ten foot wide thumb print in the Grand Canyon would be nice evidence of a Designer, but I suspect we're not going to find it. Would we recognize the thumb print of the Designer even if we saw it? I guess that's another question.

3) What do Intelligent Design scientists research? The core of science is hypothesis testing. Pose a question, suggest an explanation, and test your theory. If you cannot empirically test your theory you are dealing with philosophy or theology, rather than science. Intelligent Design cetainly poses all sorts of nice questions (who is the Designer? is there more than one? is creation a single event, or a controlled, interactive scenario? what was the Designer's purpose? where is the Designer now?), but I cannot figure out a way to test a hypothesis based on any of these questions. Do ID scientists perform research seeking incosistencies in evolution? If so, they studying evolution and are in truth evolutionary scientists.

My unoriginal inclination is to say Intelligent Design is a transparent attempt to disguise Creationism, and since neither theory can ever be tested, they are not science. But I'm trying to keep that open mind.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 8:55 PM

Quote:
I find it sad, really, that all you atheists from your perspective, are on the same plain as the Hitlers and the Stalins of history. You see, from your worldview, there is no punishment for evil. There is just the same ol' nothingness upon death irregardless of your behaviour in this life. How sad. I thank God that the truth of His world view, is that the Hitlers, the Stalins etc. of history are being justly punished for their evil.

No, its' just that we take on the responsibility for defining evil and then for figuring out what to do about it. Most Xtains I know just leave it up to "God" and "his" ministers to do the heavy lifting -and thinking- for them.

The Bible says something like "By their works you shall know them". So, how do you account for the fact that atheists are generally more moral (lie, cheat, steal, and divorce less) than "believers"?

Quote:
Barna's results verified findings of earlier polls: that conservative Protestant Christians, on average, have the highest divorce rate, while mainline Christians have a much lower rate. They found some new information as well: that atheists and agnostics have the lowest divorce rate of all.

www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

And what about those Founding Fathers? They must have been Godly men, to devise such a worthy system! Well, not quite:

Quote:
“Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’”- Adams

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear" - Jefferson

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise"- Madison

“...the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist"- Franklin

Here are more quotes so you can verify that I didn't take a sentence of phrase out of context:
www.deism.org/foundingfathers.htm

Evil Uncle Chuckles (Pat Robertson) calling for various assassinations and Dubya himself are certianly NOT good advertising for religious morality!

---------------------------------
Please don't think they give a shit.

DOUGP59

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 8:58 PM

To all the atheists and evolutionists here regarding your various posts.

I have presented a website with a series of questions. MOST of the posts in this thread to date contain no attempts to answer my questions, but instead contain insults or attempts to put me on the defensive. There have been a few exceptions, even some good philosophical questions, but most have contained neither.

To those that have actually taken the time to go through my site and to actively explore the links presented there, cudos. Even if you don't agree with me, at least you have broken with the herd and have shown some real independence.

With free minds such as yours, there is still hope for civil discourse.

I would point out that many of the posts here could not have possibly been as a result of a thorough investigation not into just my questions, but the links I present as well. Why the knee jerk reaction?

I have not endeavoured to insult individuals, if I have errored, than you have my apologies. I will continue however, to knock this silly big theory called evolution.

The ID movement will grow for many reasons, not the least if which is the sound science and intelligent reasoning being applied by well educated and credentialed minds.

It is my fervent hope that many will come to know the truth and be set free.

Yes, I believe in God and in His Son. I believe that the heavens declare His glory. The whole panorama of the heavens and of life here on earth is simply to complex to have had any other origin.

I hope one day you will find that truth.

SPINLAND

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 8:58 PM

I found it amusing how quickly our superstitious friend demonstrated the power of Godwin's Law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

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"That's what governments are for, [to] get in a man's way." -- Malcolm Reynolds

CHRISTHECYNIC

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dougp59:
all you atheists

I've avioded saying this becasue I believe that whether or not one believes in god should have no bearing on their view of science, and thus it evolution, but I am not an atheist.

Quote:
You see, from your worldview, there is no punishment for evil.

Laws are made to punish just that. Evil is defined differently in different places, but the idea, if not the word, is the grounds for punishment in all non-utilitarian socities.

Quote:
There is just the same ol' nothingness upon death irregardless of your behaviour in this life.

There is more to life than what comes after. Tell me, if you knew that when you died you would not face punishments for your sins would you act like Hitler? If you would than I find you sad. I really do, and I do not mean it in a derogitory way, I just feel deep pity for you.

Quote:
I thank God that the truth of His world view, is that the Hitlers, the Stalins etc. of history are being justly punished for their evil.

And what of the Pauls of the world, Paul the one who went into Christian homes and dragged them to imprisonment and concented to their deaths? Is he being punished for his evil? Or did he get forgiven for his sins?

Is Lot, who offered his two virgin daughters up for gang rape, being punished? Lot who Saint Peter calls a model of peity.

What if Stalin repented? Have you thought of that? I mean Paul targeted Christians, Stalin didn't do that.

And what of the people who have good in them, but also do evil? Is the good part of them being punished along with the bad, or are they split in two upon death?

Justice is a slippery thing.

And what of you? You strike me as a Christian, as you might have noticed, so I've just picked up a copy of the bible. Tell me, are you loving your enemies? Can one of your enemies, say a Samaritan for those were the enemies of Jesus' people in the time of your Christ, be good?

Have you given your money to the poor? And when you did your charitable deeds did you "sound a trumpet before you like the hypocrates" or did you "take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men"? When you pray do you pray in churches like hypocrates, or do you "go into your room, and when you have shut your door pray to your Father in the secret place"?

Do you judge not?

Are you without sin that you may cast these stones?

Perhaps you are, but when I read your words I am reminded of the Gospel of Mathew:
"Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
'These people draw near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.'"

-

I feel better.

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:05 PM

Quote:

I find it sad, really, that all you atheists from your perspective, are on the same plain as the Hitlers and the Stalins of history.

You see, from your worldview, there is no punishment for evil. There is just the same ol' nothingness upon death irregardless of your behaviour in this life.

How sad.

I thank God that the truth of His world view, is that the Hitlers, the Stalins etc. of history are being justly punished for their evil.

The truth is that Hitler was an avid and devout christian, and a die hard creationist. This is why the accusations made by eurocollectivists that social darwinism eventually led to the holocaust don't hold water. The truth is that social darwinism is a theory about how societies evolve, and the collectivists were afraid that this would ultimately lead people to support the idea of a meritocracy, and so conveniently blamed them for WWII. To the best of my knowledge, none of the people involved in the planning of the Third Reich were social darwinists, and a great number, if not all, were creationists.

As a Taoist, my faith doesn't call for, or perhaps allow, the existance of an omniscient sentient, just living forces in natural progression. If this seems like fringe wackoness to the Xtians, I would offer that my chosen faith has a following comparable to that of Christianity, Islam, Buhddhism and Hinduism. Just saying, not a fringe belief, but also not atheism.

HEB

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:08 PM

Hey Doug,

I just realised you only joined the site yesterday.

Welcome to the board!

So how did you get into firefly?

Heb

...................
Well, my sister's a ship... we had a
complicated childhood
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I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
And what about those Founding Fathers? They must have been Godly men, to devise such a worthy system! Well, not quite:
Quote:
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear" - Jefferson

I just want to point out that it is my understanding Jefferson was actually a devout Christian, he simply believed that god wanted people to use their brains. I agree with that belief, and I believe every religion should agree.

Many (but not all) of the other founding fathers were alike in that view. The things quoted were against blind or irrational faith, not against god.

SPINLAND

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:22 PM

There's no such thing as a scientist who believes in "intelligent design," nor one who buys into ignorant spewings about "problems" with evolution.

From the official 2004 position paper of the Society for the Advancement of Real Science:

Quote:
Intelligent Design is the latest attempt by creationists to force God into science and destroy evolution. It is the most dangerous form of creationism to date because it self-consciously avoids reference to God. Nevertheless, its creationist agenda bleeds through its empty rhetoric at every turn. It is in fact a politico-religious movement that masquerades as science and attempts to force a wedge between the scientific community and the wider culture. Its ultimate goal is to establish a theocracy in which the Bible becomes federal law and Genesis is taught as fact.

Although some details about evolution remain to be worked out, there is no debate among real scientists about the fundamental facts of evolution. Evolution is as well established as the Earth being spherical or going around the Sun. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming, and to reject or challenge it is not just to abjure science but to place society at grave risk. Many diseases are the result of natural selection in action, and those who minimize or question evolution are endangering public health and, in all likelihood, are already complicit in the deaths of countless people.

The Society for the Advancement of Real Science therefore urges all genuine scientists to use all legal means to oppose and overthrow this creationist pseudoscience. Although some Intelligent Design practitioners have advanced degrees in the sciences, in every known case they obtained those degrees for the express purpose of inveigling themselves into the academic and scientific communities to subvert science.

To give "ID" the stature of something worthy of serious debate is to raise the childish imaginings of a six-year-old to that of a learned scholar.

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"That's what governments are for, [to] get in a man's way." -- Malcolm Reynolds

STORYMARK

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dougp59:
I find it sad, really, that all you atheists from your perspective, are on the same plain as the Hitlers and the Stalins of history.

You see, from your worldview, there is no punishment for evil. There is just the same ol' nothingness upon death irregardless of your behaviour in this life.

How sad.

I thank God that the truth of His world view, is that the Hitlers, the Stalins etc. of history are being justly punished for their evil.

Lovely. People present well reasoned and documented responses to your points, and not only do you ignore them, but you claim they're avoiding the questions.

And having no response to their arguments, you call them all atheists just because they don't subscribe to the EXACT same view you hold, and then you compare them to Hitler. Very mature.

Now, according to Godwins Law as linked above, you have just implicitly lost the debate (thanks to whoever posted that - hadn't heard it before). Personally, I'd give you the benefit of a doubt, and let you stay in the game. But you have to actually address the points raised to you (which now include scientific, philosophic, and theologic points - just pick one), without namecalling, or loopy comparisons to despots. If you can do that, great - it's a debate. A matter of civil discourse.

Otherwise, you're just a fundamentalist nut who only hears what they want to hear.

And for the record, my view is a mix of both. I believe the theory of evolution is sound. But I also believe that evolution was kick-started by a higher being.

"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."

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