Arnold Schwarzenegger for president?-OR- If I had a nickel for every time I read the phrase....
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 07:00
VIEWED: 7135
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Fletch,
My decision to go to work for Howard Dean was about wanting team evil out of power, and Kerry/Bush were team evil, and Dean had the best shot of beating them. I don't think Dean is a socialist by any means, but even if you gave me a decent Galloway-socialist they still could get my support over this neocon-socialism, which harks back to old gory, and has more in common with Stalinist, Nazis, and the like, which are clearly the worst form available.
But this is the lesser of two evils game, that doesn't mean it's my first choice. I also campaigned for John Buchanan, who is ideological way over on the right, I'd campaign for Pat Buchanan if I thought he could win.
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
But this is the lesser of two evils game, that doesn't mean it's my first choice.
Doesn't THAT seem to be the case more and more? Too bad we don't have any great choices lately!
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Final thought about my socialist leaning past. When I was in college, Gorby seemed to make more sense then reagan. Now I look back and see Gorby as a moderate progressive, pro-free market, but more of a hybrid solution, more like a regular democrat, politically not that far from say, barbara boxer.
Reagan on the other hand was a monkey in the middle between to forces, on the one side traditional republicans, who I had no problem with, and the other side globalists, who I still have a problem with. I shifted right, sure, I came to a position on issues like RTL, and began to generally just think the republicans were right on most issues. But it wasn't a drastic shift. Gorby still makes a lot of sense to me, and I still have problems with Reagan, the only difference is now I can specifically track down, oh, here are the problems I had with him, etc. But as a simple student I was led to the erroneous conclusion 'socialism good, republicans bad.' The University didn't do much to help by not giving me an honest historical look at socialisms unerring ability to end in the most spectacular disasters ever witnessed, or the degree to which advances in civil liberties, world peace and environmental conservation were all pretty solidly made by the right, and not the left. This I now chalk up to the fact that academia is much more of a think tank world, and stands to gain by a left establishment, and so are all left leaning, though some are left simply because they were thus programmed by others in academia, and weren't actually seekers of power themselves.
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Quote:Centuryhouse, I think we are in almost total agreement here.
Originally posted by Centuryhouse:
Socialists/leftists politics are probably the LAST philosophy the Firefly crew would embrace.
...the checks and balances that were designed to keep it in check are being removed slowly but surely. If other's think it's not "going sideways", it makes me wonder if they have any idea how our government was intended to function by those who designed it?
Our Constitutionally guaranteed rights are being gobbled up, and have been for decades - by both parties. All of this 'one world government' stuff we're starting to embrace IS "The Alliance".
'Unification' is a nice word, but that's all it is, in reality.
Independent Chrisisall
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I think I'll post more rant of me because I like to hear myself type.
I also agree with this:
Quote:
Socialists/leftists politics are probably the LAST philosophy the Firefly crew would embrace.
I think there are a lot of leftists on this board, but the only reason they are socialist leaning leftists is that that is what they were programmed to be by their education, the way I was. I went to college with nothing but a 5th grade education, and I gobbled stuff up hook line and sinker, and no one ever said "hey look, we're darth vader, aren't we great?" They always pretended to be for whatever they thought we already wanted, peace, prosperity, fairness, and little fuzzy bunnies.
I wouldn't go so far as to call the democrats socialists. I don't think that's fair. But I think they do tend to always favor more govt. and central control, even now, and that's not what we need. I think the Bush admin is a democrat at best, and a socialist at worst. But alas his people are republicans now, and we on the right have to deal with that. I would agree that Mal and co would not like Bush's version of republican economics, but they might like some older version of GOP economics, like maybe Coolidge. I personally am good with most anything pre-reagan, but I think the Serenity crew wouldn't want any business above moderate size.
I'm trying to think of someone in govt. who might be welcome on Firefly. No cheese here, I could use some suggestions.
Somehow I find it hard to think that they're going to tolerate anyone more pro-govt. than frank zappa. Maybe not on board, but I think on a planet, they might agree to meet John McCain. That'll be my shot to start off with.
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I think I'll post more rant of me because I like to hear myself type.
I also agree with this:
Quote:
Socialists/leftists politics are probably the LAST philosophy the Firefly crew would embrace.
I think there are a lot of leftists on this board, but the only reason they are socialist leaning leftists is that that is what they were programmed to be by their education, the way I was. I went to college with nothing but a 5th grade education, and I gobbled stuff up hook line and sinker, and no one ever said "hey look, we're darth vader, aren't we great?" They always pretended to be for whatever they thought we already wanted, peace, prosperity, fairness, and little fuzzy bunnies.
I wouldn't go so far as to call the democrats socialists. I don't think that's fair. But I think they do tend to always favor more govt. and central control, even now, and that's not what we need. I think the Bush admin is a democrat at best, and a socialist at worst. But alas his people are republicans now, and we on the right have to deal with that. I would agree that Mal and co would not like Bush's version of republican economics, but they might like some older version of GOP economics, like maybe Coolidge. I personally am good with most anything pre-reagan, but I think the Serenity crew wouldn't want any business above moderate size.
I'm trying to think of someone in govt. who might be welcome on Firefly. No cheese here, I could use some suggestions.
Somehow I find it hard to think that they're going to tolerate anyone more pro-govt. than frank zappa. Maybe not on board, but I think on a planet, they might agree to meet John McCain. That'll be my shot to start off with.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I think I'll post more rant of me because I like to hear myself type.
I also agree with this:
Quote:
Socialists/leftists politics are probably the LAST philosophy the Firefly crew would embrace.
I think there are a lot of leftists on this board, but the only reason they are socialist leaning leftists is that that is what they were programmed to be by their education, the way I was. I went to college with nothing but a 5th grade education, and I gobbled stuff up hook line and sinker, and no one ever said "hey look, we're darth vader, aren't we great?" They always pretended to be for whatever they thought we already wanted, peace, prosperity, fairness, and little fuzzy bunnies.
I wouldn't go so far as to call the democrats socialists. I don't think that's fair. But I think they do tend to always favor more govt. and central control, even now, and that's not what we need. I think the Bush admin is a democrat at best, and a socialist at worst. But alas his people are republicans now, and we on the right have to deal with that. I would agree that Mal and co would not like Bush's version of republican economics, but they might like some older version of GOP economics, like maybe Coolidge. I personally am good with most anything pre-reagan, but I think the Serenity crew wouldn't want any business above moderate size.
I'm trying to think of someone in govt. who might be welcome on Firefly. No cheese here, I could use some suggestions.
Somehow I find it hard to think that they're going to tolerate anyone more pro-govt. than frank zappa. Maybe not on board, but I think on a planet, they might agree to meet John McCain. That'll be my shot to start off with.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I think I'll post more rant of me because I like to hear myself type.
I also agree with this:
Quote:
Socialists/leftists politics are probably the LAST philosophy the Firefly crew would embrace.
I think there are a lot of leftists on this board, but the only reason they are socialist leaning leftists is that that is what they were programmed to be by their education, the way I was. I went to college with nothing but a 5th grade education, and I gobbled stuff up hook line and sinker, and no one ever said "hey look, we're darth vader, aren't we great?" They always pretended to be for whatever they thought we already wanted, peace, prosperity, fairness, and little fuzzy bunnies.
I wouldn't go so far as to call the democrats socialists. I don't think that's fair. But I think they do tend to always favor more govt. and central control, even now, and that's not what we need. I think the Bush admin is a democrat at best, and a socialist at worst. But alas his people are republicans now, and we on the right have to deal with that. I would agree that Mal and co would not like Bush's version of republican economics, but they might like some older version of GOP economics, like maybe Coolidge. I personally am good with most anything pre-reagan, but I think the Serenity crew wouldn't want any business above moderate size.
I'm trying to think of someone in govt. who might be welcome on Firefly. No cheese here, I could use some suggestions.
Somehow I find it hard to think that they're going to tolerate anyone more pro-govt. than frank zappa. Maybe not on board, but I think on a planet, they might agree to meet John McCain. That'll be my shot to start off with.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
I think there are a lot of leftists on this board, but the only reason they are socialist leaning leftists is that that is what they were programmed to be by their education, the way I was. I went to college with nothing but a 5th grade education, and I gobbled stuff up hook line and sinker, and no one ever said "hey look, we're darth vader, aren't we great?" They always pretended to be for whatever they thought we already wanted, peace, prosperity, fairness, and little fuzzy bunnies.
My word, this really makes you out to be a condescending Ahole. "People disagree with me only because they don't have the interlectual stones to question what they have been taught."
What a profoundly egotistical git you are.
People have different opinions because their life experience teaches them different lessons. It tends to be the honest adaptation of their world view through experience and circumstance, people have different experience to you, their views reflect their best understanding of the world in the light of those experiences. Had you shared those experiences it is extremely likely that you would share a common view with them, that you didn't just means you have a different view of things, not that the one you have is better or more "right."
That is the message of Serenity, people have to be free to make their own mistakes. One mans "better world" is another man's nightmare.
As to the political inclination of the crew? Russians call WW2 "The great patriotic war" these people were COMMUNISTS invaded by the Nazi regime, but if you look at their literature and language of the time you will find echoes of the American Revolution in it. Anybody, no matter what their political outlook will respond the same when attacked by a hostile foreign power. They will all appeal to patriotism, they will all fight to protect what's theirs. You cannot make any assumptions about the political structure, beliefs or otherwise of the Independents other than their understandable wish to govern themselves. Remember that those nice, refined, educated Southern gentlemen taking the field for the Confederacy did so believing they were fighting for the right for Southern Self determination and states rights. They were also fighting for slavery.
In the pilot Mal et al conduct illegal salvage on a transport ship. You cheer, what a libertarian, what a great guy sticking it to "the man." Yet I bet you thought it was ok to shoot those folks looting in New Orleans? Mal steals from the rich and..... well he keeps it. For all your saying that he's a Libertarian icon most libertarians would prefer people that take other people's property (especially THEIR property) in jail.
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Fletch,
Thanks for the amazingly hostile response. I don't think I'm a condescending git. I think that the socialist leaning left, in America, is a pre-programmed fabrication of the intellectuals in our education system. I grant the same sort of things happen in churches in the south re: their right wing beliefs, but I'm not taking this sock in the jaw lying down.
Don't be absurd, why would I support the shooting of Americans by their govt.?
American socialism is not by any means the result of life experience. The old 'rightist are based on life experience, leftists are based on education' shows only that education has a leftist slant. It's not that 'if you're informed, you'd be a socialist' it's that 'if you were taught to be so, you are a socialist.' I think that this requires the focus on a lot of presumptive rights, and the careful omission of much of history.
If your theory were correct, then the followers of the American socialist left should be all over the board politically. This is simply not the case. They are lockstep, politically. This is a marked contrast to the non-neocon right, and is a direct parallel to the neocon right.
Where the followers of the socialist leaning left differ from the politicians of the left, they never seem to blame the politicians in question. Leftists often say 'damn the vietnam war damn the korean war, damn nuking japan' but never 'damn the democrats for giving us those wars.' It's a carefully spun belief system.
Am I including all the left here? No. I said 'socialist leaning leftists' because that's what I meant, a school of thought which is taught, not learned through life experience. I know this because I was taught it, and I rejected it because I learned several things about it:
1. Socialism is the politics of genocide and warfare. It has always been, and at least 100 million are dead and counting.
2. Socialism has two facets which mandate that 1. would be true: a) it's cooperative by nature and doesn't foster an atmosphere of dissent. b) It has a moral obligation to enforce equality which means in order to adhere to its own creed, it needs to take over other people's societies, and dismantle and assimilate them.
3. As one of the rural poor, I am no fan of 'benefit the rich' politics. But increased taxation to drive a top-heavy social support system is going to hurt individual business, whether it's the local General Store or General Motors. The fact is that hurting individual businesses hurts individual economics, private sector jobs and thus individual freedom.
If someone has a life experience which leads them to believe that the people, collectively, cannot sustain themselves without government supervision and support, as hard as it is for me to imagine that such as thing would occur, then so beit.
But this is NOT where the American socialists come from. Our univerities crank them out every year. It's my suspicion that university professor dream of big think tank jobs, and want to create followers who will someday forward them to power. But whatever the reason, they are most certainly teaching this belief structure the way the churches teach this Revelations BS. American socialism isn't an independent political point of view, it's a religion.
Saying that this is independent life experience is like looking at the numerous pro-chinese maoist terrorist organizations in various countries in east asia and saying "Hey, look, it's the voice of the people, and is in no way influenced or fed by China!"
Finally, what was at issue was not whether humans were ever naturally socialists, it was whether firefly fans were ever naturally socialists. I think as other do that the shows take is extremely clear.
Since I have mentioned many times that I think that neocons are socialist republicans, and that socialist republicans exist, and the 'team evil' is a group of republicans and democrats who are all socialist-leaning, clearly this is not *strictly* a right-left issue. Mostly I think of socialism as left because it's been traditionally left.
But
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