General Discussions

Future Tech ... on nanobots and the human soul in the 26th Century

POSTED BY: Karnejj
UPDATED: Thursday, January 5, 2006 21:49
VIEWED: 13373
PAGE 4 of 8

KARNEJJ

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 2:23 AM

^^^

See how "the MAN " operates!! He's subverted this thread already and claims that it's "unintentional"

KARNEJJ

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 2:58 AM

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Originally posted by citizen:
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And it's my contention that (just as humans), a sufficiently advanced computer program would be self-aware (conscious/sentient/etc). You like to believe that the key is in the hardware architecture, whereas I like to think that it lies in the learning and information assimilation methods only.

Then you'd be dead wrong, no offence meant, but we already have computer programs that can learn just like Humans do, Neural Networks. None has ever obtained consciousness. Ever.

And all known examples thus far are both quite simplistic and quite limited in the scope of their knowledge. Knowledge structures, to date, have failed to allow a program enough intelligence to reconcile contradictions and to classify and prioritize data efficiently. Once this is done, I believe your coveted self-awareness will be able to arise without any meat around.

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Furthermore your idea that Learning is the basis for consciousness doesn't seem to make much sense too me. How does the ability to gain and store information give rise to consciousness? Is a Library conscious? Surely my computer is conscious given these criteria? It can store and recall data far faster and efficiently than I can.

There are no known AI programs, Libraries, or Computer File Systems that exist today which you would consider "highly intelligent." (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Show me one, give me a few months to work with it and I'll show you an sentient artificial entity.

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It also suggests that consciousness is dependent on Intelligence, but I think it's actually the other way around...

And this seems to be the key point on which we disagree...

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I don't believe that Biological Neurons are the only thing that would show this emergent behaviour, I think it's the only thing we currently know or have theorised about that can produce these emergent behaviours. Neurons taken from leeches, I believe, have already shown that they are more efficient at passing signals, and can perform arithmetic. Yet you continue to discount them as anything but simple fire/don't fire mechanisms that would be easily copied.

What else is an individual neuron?? I would guess that only collections of neurons can perform any sort of arithmetic ... If you've got research indicating otherwise, prove it to me and I still won't believe it

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I'd also say that Planck’s constant in no way supports the idea that the Universe (or the Brain) is digital.

You may turn out to be right ... but so far, that's what the "quanta" in quantum physics means ... and to date it's the best we've got to describe the Universe. So, brains, electrons, neurotransmitters and all work on a digital basis.

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How do you model something that doesn't need exact values on something that does?

What in the brain, exactly, is it that requires such a high value of precision. If anything, the neural inputs are INTEGERS (i.e. the number of neurotransmitters impinging on the dendrites)!!!

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If you think that sentience lies elsewhere, then you haven't told me where that would be. I couldn't dispute you if you attributed self-awareness to an as-yet-undiscovered property of large collection of meat-based neurons, but that'd be somewhat

I've alluded to it. Consciousness arises from the huge interconnectivity within the Brain, it comes from the feedback, which is like the brain looking back at itself over and over and over (something that would lock up a silicon chip).

Some digital gates are actually a group of feedback electronic components. (D-Latches or J/K Flip-Flops if my DC circuits recollection is correct... been a while

) Integrating Op Amps are also capable of feedback. And as stated, my design in one of the above posts takes into consideration feedback.

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Again I mean no offence to you here, but I see nothing new. You've devalued

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GUNRUNNER

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 3:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Karnejj:
I think the precedent of the indiscriminate "Fat Boy" and "Little Man" kinda contradict the nicey-nice world you're describing.

Yea and the Soviets used Nerve Gas on Mujahadin (sp?) in Afghanistan. The Japanese stopped being a conventional enemy force about halfway thought the war (well counting from the US entry). Unconventional enemies don't get the protections of the rules of war, did you know that in the US Army’s field manual from WWII it says you can basically do whatever you want to a civilian populace (such as round up and summarily execute them) that help’s enemy forces that violate the rules of war (i.e. by terrorism)? Its well known that each side picks what weapons will be used before the even conflict starts, the Japanese picked the route of every increasing firepower in violation of various treaties, and they lost by the rules they set up.

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Originally posted by Karnejj:
I guess the number of nukes became irrelevent once we had enough to destroy the entire planet more than a couple of times over ... we're still at enough for - what is it? - 80+ times now?

Destroy the entire planet? I find it hard to believe someone as smart as you believe those figures...

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KARNEJJ

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 3:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
You've mentioned that the Brain is just a meat computer a number of times.
The size of the cell is not important for interactions on the Quantum level. For a more detailed discussion on the various ideas about Quantum effects within the Brain can be found here:
http://www.arxiv.org/PS_cache/quant-ph/pdf/0204/0204021.pdf
As for the interconnectivity, well, we're not even close to being close.

Oh goody! I *DO* get to talk about quantum computers.

That'll take a while to put together, but I still say even this is irrelevent. To me, it's all about information assimilation and intelligence, so, I still maintain that the hardware used to achieve that is of no consequence.

It would put "Free Will" back into the human equation, but even software can be augmented by simple hardware that would serve the same function of allowing "true randomness."

KARNEJJ

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 3:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GunRunner:
Quote:
Originally posted by Karnejj:
I guess the number of nukes became irrelevent once we had enough to destroy the entire planet more than a couple of times over ... we're still at enough for - what is it? - 80+ times now?
Destroy the entire planet? I find it hard to believe someone as smart as you believe those figures...

It doesn't take much to create globe-spanning irradiated clouds of ionizing poison. So for those that don't die in the heat or debris in the blast radii, the radioactive clouds would destroy most simple organisms immediately and mutate/kill the cells of more complex critters.

Once the simple organisms die though, that whole food chain problem kicks in ... so, yes, we do have enough nukes to destroy the world. Well, if not totally destroyed, there'd be nobody left to point out that I was wrong ...

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 4:14 AM

This is a fascinating thread, people, but what I really want to know is: was V'ger a true life form, AND, is Decker living happily ever-after?

Chrisisall, suffering wormhole effects

GUNRUNNER

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 4:19 AM

I think you've seen 'On the Beach' too many times...

Have you read this:
http://www.oism.org/nwss/s73p906.htm

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KARNEJJ

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 4:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
This is a facinating thread, people, but what I really want to know is: was V'ger a true life form, AND, is Decker living happily ever-after?

TROLL!!!

But YES, V'ger and Data are ALIVE!

As for Decker ... maybe I should've watched the alternate endings?? I hear the director's cut (that I saw) kinda sucked ...

KARNEJJ

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 4:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GunRunner:
I think you've seen 'On the Beach' too many times...

Have you read this:
http://www.oism.org/nwss/s73p906.htm

Hmmm ... are you saying that the world isn't considered destroyed if a handful of people live on in bomb shelters?

Never seen that movie, either .. would you recommend it?

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 4:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Karnejj:
It doesn't take much to create globe-spanning irradiated clouds of ionizing poison.

I think, Nuclear testing, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Chernobyl may prove otherwise. All these cases were events that released large doses of highly radioactive fallout into the atmosphere. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki explosions, while devastating initially, have not had the effect that was predicted. Chernobyl released as much as 50 tones of radioactive ash into the atmosphere, ~400 times the radioactive contamination of Hiroshima. Initial estimates of the immediate casualties were in the thousands to ten’s of thousands and the long term effects were estimated at over a hundred thousand. We now know that the immediate casualties numbered only 54 and the long term effects are now predicted at 4000 causalities. And despite how large the Chernobyl disaster was, the fact of the matter is that nuclear testing during the 50-70s produced as much as a thousand times as much fallout.

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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.