Future Tech ... on nanobots and the human soul in the 26th Century

POSTED BY: Karnejj
UPDATED: Thursday, January 5, 2006 21:49
VIEWED: 13373
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CITIZEN

Monday, January 2, 2006 8:44 PM

It's not just displaying those characteristics, but displaying them of its own volition. The creature from the game Black and White showed some interesting emergent characteristics, similar to what may be considered consciousness, yet wasn't. The creature would run off and jump in the ocean if set on fire, despite not being directly programmed to do so. Also the creature would eat its own arm if it got hungry enough, but it wasn't conscious. It didn't suddenly decide to play golf. It didn't stop playing its part in the game because it wanted more out of life. It wasn't conscious.

Now the telling thing is simulating concurrency. Simulated concurrency is the Time-share scheme we have currently running under multi-threaded environments such as Windows. It is not concurrency. It is also important to remember that windows threads rarely interact, and even when they do they must be synchronised, and they're interaction is still limited (based largely on memory mapped files, for instance).

Simulated concurrency is not as good as concurrency. The underlying operations are performed serially, the interactions are performed serially, and the results are those of a serial operation, not a parallel one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Karnejj:
Now, however, you seem to believe that sentience is basically defined as an emergent property of extreme inter-connectivity in adaptive analog circuits.

There's more too it than that. I certainly don't believe it arises from a greater number of clock cycles within an advanced calculating device

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I'm not sure how adamant you are on true sentience requiring quadrillionth place (or better) precision in signal calculations, but I'll assume that you wouldn't make it a strict requirement.

If it is anything but exactingly precise (i.e. no fuzziness inherent within the values) then it is merely a simulation with an acceptable value of precision. I can fly to Jupiter in Celestia, but I'm still waiting for Discovery 1.

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Other than that, the system I described above should be a fair approximation of the hardware of the human brain. Self-feedback is easily achieved as a low-weight address of itself stored in my electronic "neuron." I still don't see any insurmountable obstacles in the signal propagation, and extrapolating out CURRENT tech to the year 2020 would mean that it would only require about 2000 multi-proc boards, which is probably about the size of a large van.

Given the fact that you believe the Human brain can be reproduced on a silicon computer I don't understand why you wish to simplify the Brain model in to something more desirable for a Binary system? Further more the Brain is not a computer. A computer is a device capable of processing and storing information in accordance with a predetermined set of instructions. That's not the Brain.

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Again, there's still more radical techs that I haven't really touched on, which could potentially more easily fit (and even exceed) the hardware requirements you have.

Yes, it's around today. It's called the biological brain

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More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
Remember, the ice caps aren't melting, the water is being liberated.

CITIZEN

Monday, January 2, 2006 9:44 PM

World War II is a very different time to today.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed (well Nagasaki was bombed because Kokura had too much cloud cover, how's that for the dictate of fate?) as a show of force not only to the Japanese, in order to end the war early, but also the Russians, with whom relations were getting strained. Hey it worked, it was a big reason Stalin wanted to produce his own weapons, and it sure helped kick start the cold war.

Also it was kind of an 'experiment'. No one knew what would happen to people in a nuclear blast. Hell while your dropping one might as well do some research, right?

Those concerns aren't around today. Also modern warfare has changed a great deal.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
Remember, the ice caps aren't melting, the water is being liberated.

KARNEJJ

Monday, January 2, 2006 10:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
It's not just displaying those characteristics, but displaying them of its own volition. The creature from the game Black and White showed some interesting emergent characteristics, similar to what may be considered consciousness, yet wasn't.

And it's my contention that (just as humans), a sufficiently advanced computer program would be self-aware (conscious/sentient/etc). You like to believe that the key is in the hardware architecture, whereas I like to think that it lies in the learning and information assimilation methods only. I could diagram it as follows

XXX ---> advanced learning and efficient info processing ---> sentience

"XXX" in my diagram could be your biological brain OR my software program.

In other words, I think the architecture of the brain only leads to the learning, but in the end that it is the learning that can give rise to sentience, but that biological neurons are NOT a strict requirement - they are ONLY ONE method of getting the advanced learning which is required. I would contend that your belief in the causality of self-awareness could be flawed.

Let's see ... if there is an error in cause and effect, then the following argument should work ...
It would be possible to dispute you by going through case studies of people who have suffered brain damage. Would it be possible to find someone who has suffered minor damage, but is no longer a self-aware entity? People in vegetative states, perhaps? For the most part, some of these people's neural connectivity is largely undisturbed, and still have "zillions" of interconnections between neurons, and yet show no self-awareness. Could you dispute me in such a manner? That is, could you find a highly intelligent entity that is NOT self-aware? So far, anything that we describe as intelligent, we also attribute some measure of self-awareness to. Dophins, apes, and even dogs.

Quote:

Simulated concurrency is not as good as concurrency. The underlying operations are performed serially, the interactions are performed serially, and the results are those of a serial operation, not a parallel one.
Quote:
Originally posted by Karnejj:
Now, however, you seem to believe that sentience is basically defined as an emergent property of extreme inter-connectivity in adaptive analog circuits.

There's more too it than that. I certainly don't believe it arises from a greater number of clock cycles within an advanced calculating device .

Well .. I don't think either of us believe that all you need is a faster computer ... [But, I do think running a copy of "SoftHuman 2020" would require a rather fast computer.]

Quote:

Quote:
I'm not sure how adamant you are on true sentience requiring quadrillionth place (or better) precision in signal calculations, but I'll assume that you wouldn't make it a strict requirement.

If it is anything but exactingly precise (i.e. no fuzziness inherent within the values) then it is merely a simulation with an acceptable value of precision.

I can't dispute that, but that's getting pretty far from our issue ... even our brains (and, indeed, everything in the universe as it is currently understood) is digital. How many "bits" of precision would you suppose are needed for sentience is my question... If you beleive it is much more than 512 bits of precision or so, then you will have defeated my design being built using current technology.

Quote:

Further more the Brain is not a computer. A computer is a device capable of processing and storing information in accordance with a predetermined set of instructions. That's not the Brain.

You're right .. I haven't disputed that. But, if you think sentience lies in high-levels of interconnectivity with nodes that are small enough to be subject to quantum effects, then THAT, I believe, CAN be reproduced in hardware.

If you think that sentience lies elsewhere, then you haven't told me where that w

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Monday, January 2, 2006 11:05 PM

The US is not the country with the most nuclear warheads. That distinction goes to Russia, both as the Russian Republic and the Soviet Union, and it has held that distinction since ~1975. The US nuclear arsenal increased to a maximum about 30,000 warheads in ~1965 and then began to fall off as the US started disarming. The Soviets on the other hand increased their arsenal continuously to ~45,000 warheads, until they were bankrupt in late 80s and began disarming. Today the US holds a total nuclear arsenal of 10,000 warheads, and Russia, about 20,000. The only strategic munitions category in which the US holds a small numerical advantage over the Russians is in submarine launched ICBMs, but only recently, and probably more due to the Russians inability to maintain an active submarine fleet then anything intentional.

Also the Soviets had the largest nuclear weapons. The largest nuclear weapon ever tested was a 58 mt Russian whopper. Yet despite its size it was actually a scaled down test version of the actual 150 mt weapon. By comparison the largest weapon the US tested was the 15 mt Bravo, which was actually larger then expected(almost 700 times larger then the bomb that destroyed Hiroshima).

And yes, it is sometimes good to be on the side that has the upper-hand, but more important still it is better that the side with the upper-hand be a country with liberal and democratic tendencies and not like those the US would prefer disarmed. Both the Soviets and the Nazis held the upper hand militarily, but it wasn't good to be on their side.

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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

KARNEJJ

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 1:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The US is not the country with the most nuclear warheads. That distinction goes to Russia, both as the Russian Republic and the Soviet Union, and it has held that distinction since ~1975. The US nuclear arsenal increased to a maximum about 30,000 warheads in ~1965 and then began to fall off as the US started disarming

At $400 bucks per toilet handle ... are you sure of that?

Just kidding ... I guess the number of nukes became irrelevent once we had enough to destroy the entire planet more than a couple of times over ... we're still at enough for - what is it? - 80+ times now?

KARNEJJ

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 1:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
And yes, it is sometimes good to be on the side that has the upper-hand, but more important still it is better that the side with the upper-hand be a country with liberal and democratic tendencies and not like those the US would prefer disarmed. Both the Soviets and the Nazis held the upper hand militarily, but it wasn't good to be on their side.

The type of government is likely an irrelevent issue. It was only "not good" to be on their side because their method of world domination was obvious. The current power elite keeps enough weapons in their allied forces to maintain "Mutually Assured Destruction" while subverting people of the world economically.

Who are the "power elite?" Decide for yourself what it might mean, but members of the Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergers, even members of Yale's "Skull and Bones" fraternity usually tend to end up in prominent positions throughout the world's governments and companies.

What do I mean by "economic subversion?" Just reviewing the current monetary system in the US reveals some ugly truths. EVERY SINGLE printed US dollar (total of about $700 billion today) that is circulating (no matter what country it is in) costs some tax-paying American about 0.75cents in interest EVERY MONTH payable to an American bank (which is over $5billion per month being paid just in interest to keep our current money supply available). What makes this even worse is the fact that most American money (two-thirds of it) is outside of American borders. Interest is one of the primary methods of subversion as far as I can tell. John Maynard Keynes said this method "engaged all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million will be able to diagnose." [The Economic Consequences of the Peace (1919)]

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 2:04 AM

Fruitcake.

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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

KARNEJJ

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 2:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Fruitcake.

You must work for "the Man!"

So noted!

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 2:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Karnejj:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Fruitcake.

You must work for "the Man!"

So noted!

As it turns out, I do.

But I’m not trying to hijack the thread; I just wanted to make the nuclear arsenal thing clear.

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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, January 3, 2006 2:23 AM

Quote:
And it's my contention that (just as humans), a sufficiently advanced computer program would be self-aware (conscious/sentient/etc). You like to believe that the key is in the hardware architecture, whereas I like to think that it lies in the learning and information assimilation methods only.

Then you'd be dead wrong, no offence meant, but we already have computer programs that can learn just like Humans do, Neural Networks. None has ever obtained consciousness. Ever. Furthermore your idea that Learning is the basis for consciousness doesn't seem to make much sense too me. How does the ability to gain and store information give rise to consciousness? Is a Library conscious? Surely my computer is conscious given these criteria? It can store and recall data far faster and efficiently than I can.

It also suggests that consciousness is dependent on Intelligence, but I think it's actually the other way around...

Quote:
In other words, I think the architecture of the brain only leads to the learning, but in the end that it is the learning that can give rise to sentience, but that biological neurons are NOT a strict requirement - they ONLY lead to the advanced learning which is required. I would contend that your belief in the causality of self-awareness could be flawed.

I don't believe that Biological Neurons are the only thing that would show this emergent behaviour, I think it's the only thing we currently know or have theorised about that can produce these emergent behaviours. Neurons taken from leeches, I believe, have already shown that they are more efficient at passing signals, and can perform arithmetic. Yet you continue to discount them as anything but simple fire/don't fire mechanisms that would be easily copied. This doesn't pan out because we've been trying to do that since before the electronic computer (the Neural Net was first proposed in the late 1800's to explain the workings of the brain).

Quote:
Let's see ... if there is an error in cause and effect, then the following argument should work ...
It would be possible to dispute you by going through case studies of people who have suffered brain damage. Would it be possible to find someone who has suffered minor damage, but is no longer a self-aware entity? People in vegetative states, perhaps? For the most part, some of these people's neural connectivity is largely undisturbed, and still have "zillions" of interconnections between neurons, and yet show no self-awareness. Could you dispute me in such a manner? That is, could you find a highly intelligent entity that is NOT self-aware? So far, anything that we describe as intelligent, we also attribute some measure of self-awareness to. Dophins, apes, and even dogs.

Someone in a vegetative state doesn't show much in the way of learning, thinking or general intelligence skills either.
People don't descend into vegetative states without good reason. It's either because the Brain has elected to shutdown as a self-defence mechanism, such as when a diabetic goes hypoglycaemic (or anyone really) or if there is serious damage to the areas of the brain responsible for higher function. In other words find such a case and it'll be worth debating

.
I'd actually contend that Self-Awareness, consciousness itself is a requirement of true Intelligence, which includes desire.

Quote:
Well .. I don't think either of us believe that all you need is a faster computer ... [But, I do think running a copy of "SoftHuman 2020" would require a rather fast computer.]

It just seems that you have been maintaining that processing power is an issue, that a computer as powerful as the brain would be sentient etc.

Quote:
I can't dispute that, but that's getting pretty far from our issue ... even our brains (and, indeed, everything in the universe as it is currently understood) is digital. How many "bits" of precision would you suppose are needed for sentience is my question... If you beleive it is much more than 512 bits of precision or so, then you will h

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