The science of FireFly.

POSTED BY: citizen
UPDATED: Monday, January 2, 2006 17:07
VIEWED: 9314
PAGE 5 of 7

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 NEXT PAGE

KARNEJJ

Saturday, December 31, 2005 10:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by spaceshiplover:
So, to answer another post, there is no FTL travel in the Firefly universe, how then did they get to another solar system? Are all the planets in the shows in the same solar system? Are they in different solar systems?

It is these things that interest me.

Well, assuming that they are indeed travelling to different solar systems, they do seem to be in unusually densely populated area of the galaxy. However, you can easily assume that most of their monotonous flight time is just simply cut-out of the shows without so much as a mention. Due to their age continuity, we can assume they're not cutting out years, but rather, at best, months. To be able to reach various different solar systems in only months of time would indicate a densely populated region.

However, we could alternately assume that they are just travelling within the confines of a particularly large single solar system. Even assume that an unusual number of planets lie similar distances from the sun(s), so that they all receive habitable amounts of solar energy. Of course, terraforming is a large topic in the show, so it is conceivable that the planets that appear sunny are just tricks of some highly-advanced terraforming technology. The Serentity movie almost seems to bolster this theory as there did not seem to be an abundance of solar energy in the Reaver space they passed through, but that the secret planet had to be like the most well-lit world in the 'verse - after watching the movie a couple of times, I started calling it Brightworld, actually.

CITIZEN

Saturday, December 31, 2005 11:56 PM

Why do people still die?

Nanotechnology. The great fix all answer.

Or not. We can't build cogs that don't wear out in less than a second on the nano scale at the moment. Also we can't build particularly intelligent macro robots, so nano-tech robots seem pretty far off.

Most current nanotech has nothing to do with miniature robots; it's to do with advanced engineering of materials, for instance. Robots are a very small part of it.

On top of that even if they do have tiny super robots, how are they to prevent people dying? Where do the resources come from to repair the damage to the body?

Even given that there's many instances where Nanobots would be unable to help. If you're kicked out an airlock even a nanobot can do nothing.

On the subject of brain computers. Moore's law also predicts that one day computers will not be enhanced any further. We are actually reaching that postulate now with conventional electronic computers.

Further how does one download their brain? We have very little knowledge of how the brain works, and that doesn't seem to have advanced greatly by the era of Firefly. How would these computer brains simulate the Quantum interactions that also work with in the Human brain to generate consciousness?

This immortal human tech is far further off than the 26th century.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
Remember, the ice caps aren't melting, the water is being liberated.

CITIZEN

Sunday, January 1, 2006 12:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by spaceshiplover:
So, to answer another post, there is no FTL travel in the Firefly universe, how then did they get to another solar system? Are all the planets in the shows in the same solar system? Are they in different solar systems?

Firefly takes place in a single system consisting of 21 habitable planets and roughly 50 habitable moons. Humans came to the system through STL generational ships after the collapse of Earth. These ships travelled at relativistic speeds, so they were able to travel huge distances in a short subjective time frame.

There's an equation that can help to tell us how far a ship will travel at high relativistic speeds:
t = t0/(1-v²/c²)½

Where: t = time of external observer
t0 = time on board ship
v = the speed of the moving object
c = the speed of light in a vacuum

Let’s assume they travelled 200ly at 0.8c. This journey would take 250yrs.
Rearranging the equation to give t0 and simplifying for c:
t0 = t * (1 - V²)½
Where V is the speed of the craft as a fraction of c.
t0 = 250 * (1 - 0.8²)½
t0 = 250 * 0.36½
t0 = 250 * 0.6
t0 = 150

So a journey of 200ly would take 150yrs for those on board ship at 0.8c given relativistic time dilation effects.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
Remember, the ice caps aren't melting, the water is being liberated.

KARNEJJ

Sunday, January 1, 2006 1:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Why do people still die?

Nanotechnology. The great fix all answer.

Or not. We can't build cogs that don't wear out in less than a second on the nano scale at the moment. Also we can't build particularly intelligent macro robots, so nano-tech robots seem pretty far off.

Most current nanotech has nothing to do with miniature robots; it's to do with advanced engineering of materials, for instance. Robots are a very small part of it.

On top of that even if they do have tiny super robots, how are they to prevent people dying? Where do the resources come from to repair the damage to the body?

Even given that there's many instances where Nanobots would be unable to help. If you're kicked out an airlock even a nanobot can do nothing.

On the subject of brain computers. Moore's law also predicts that one day computers will not be enhanced any further. We are actually reaching that postulate now with conventional electronic computers.

Further how does one download their brain? We have very little knowledge of how the brain works, and that doesn't seem to have advanced greatly by the era of Firefly. How would these computer brains simulate the Quantum interactions that also work with in the Human brain to generate consciousness?

This immortal human tech is far further off than the 26th century.

--------------

No way any sane galactic civilization would be able to "direct gravitons" and not prioritize nanotech research higher than the theoretical physics behind gravitational manipulation. Nanotech holds way too much potential to be neglected in any far-future society, so I would expect bullet wounds to not be as lethal as they are in the Firefly 'verse. Nanobots would be able to heal us just like our normal cells do - just a lot faster. I'm sure sources of repair materials could easily be drawn from clothing and/or the ground+air. They wouldn't be able to save a person from every situation ... but localized wounds should be a long-gone problem. I'm talking about technology that should eventually approach a Terminator-2 level of resiliency.

As for "downloading brains," you do seem to be right about the state of the Neurological science in the Firefly 'verse. They are still conducting rudimentary experiments into ESP and human programming. However, I'm sure any electronic sensory system system capable of terraforming entire moons and guiding city-sized spaceships would be capable of mapping a human brain pretty exactly. I believe I've seen estimates that it would only take 32 gigabytes of data to store a map of the human brain down to quantum states. Even with present-day technology, if given enough money, a lab could slice down a dead brain into thinner-than-paper slices and scan them to recreate the structure. MRI and similar techniques are increasing our resolution on living brains more and more each year.

As for human consciousness and the paradox of "Why we are aware enough to question our own existence," well ... quantum interactions are the last hiding place that we can shroud them in mystery, but I think eventually, we'll all have to face the fact that our personalities/decisions/actions are pretty predictably programmed into our macroscopic neural structure and we will have to accept that we are just meat computers whose outputs could be predicted with extreme accuracy when we decipher the programming language called our "nervous system" - if we know all of the inputs.

We'd like to think that the inherent randomness of quantum effects allow us to avoid having our actions predetermined or "fated," but alas, I think we're no less predictable than any computer program that we can create. All the new talk of quantum-effects and consciousness just smacks of "Earth is the center of the Universe"-type vanity. We'll find out our consciousness isn't very special at all ... just like our place (physical location) in the Universe.

CITIZEN

Sunday, January 1, 2006 2:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Karnejj:
No way any sane galactic civilization would be able to "direct gravitons" and not prioritize nanotech research higher than the theoretical physics behind gravitational manipulation.

We can direct electricity yet we cannot stop lightning. You're assuming it's harder to direct Graviton's than it is to create Nanobots. Nanobots are incredibly sophisticated machinery, more sophisticated than anything we can make now, on a scale far far far smaller than even the simplest nano tech we can make now. Nanobots of the type you speak of are incredibly advanced tech, so advanced that they would appear to be like magic too us now.

Much of what I spoke of for Gravity is being theorised NOW and even being developed by companies such as BAE and Boeing and looked at by organisations such as NASA.

Look at Star Trek. They have warp drive but the Federation can't build Nanobots...

As for brains:
Beyond the fact that it is possible to predict people's reactions to a degree, with increasing divergence with time, if quantum interactions are involved then there is a certain level of uncertainty that may give rise to our consciousness. The human brain is not just a meat computer, there's far more too it, the computing aspect is minor. I'm saying that computers won't be capable of consciousness until we have biological computers, in other words you can’t fake consciousness. Once we have biological computers it would be easier to hook up the brain directly, as a module of the main computing unit, than too download the structure.

The brain is more than just a hard drive.

Also there is demonstrable evidence that quantum interactions have an effect on the Brain

.

Quote:
if we know all of the inputs.

erm, yeah, that’s the telling thing. If we knew all the inputs we’d be able to predict the weather for any amount of time in the future. The problem is, you can’t know all the variables, that’s a big part of Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle.

When you or anyone else, has written a computer program that accurately models the reactions and interactions of any Human being under any circumstances, come back to me

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
Remember, the ice caps aren't melting, the water is being liberated.

DONCOAT

Sunday, January 1, 2006 3:20 AM

Further research in nanotechnology was banned worldwide after the catastrophe of 2067, in which self-replicating nanobots intended for medical repair got loose in the environment and began making "adjustments" to the humans they encountered. Almost half a billion lives were lost, and over two billion suffered devastating nonlethal consequences before the outbreak was controlled.

Moron.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't about you, Jayne. It's about what they need.

CITIZEN

Sunday, January 1, 2006 3:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
Moron.

That's the spirit

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
Remember, the ice caps aren't melting, the water is being liberated.

KARNEJJ

Sunday, January 1, 2006 5:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Karnejj:
No way any sane galactic civilization would be able to "direct gravitons" and not prioritize nanotech research higher than the theoretical physics behind gravitational manipulation.

We can direct electricity yet we cannot stop lightning. You're assuming it's harder to direct Graviton's than it is to create Nanobots.
Nanobots are incredibly sophisticated machinery, more sophisticated than anything we can make now, on a scale far far far smaller than even the simplest nano tech we can make now. Nanobots of the type you speak of are incredibly advanced tech, so advanced that they would appear to be like magic too us now.

Much of what I spoke of for Gravity is being theorised NOW and even being developed by companies such as BAE and Boeing and looked at by organisations such as NASA.

Look at Star Trek. They have warp drive but the Federation can't build Nanobots...

As for brains:
Beyond the fact that it is possible to predict people's reactions to a degree, with increasing divergence with time, if quantum interactions are involved then there is a certain level of uncertainty that may give rise to our consciousness. The human brain is not just a meat computer, there's far more too it, the computing aspect is minor. I'm saying that computers won't be capable of consciousness until we have biological computers, in other words you can’t fake consciousness. Once we have biological computers it would be easier to hook up the brain directly, as a module of the main computing unit, than too download the structure.

The brain is more than just a hard drive.

Also there is demonstrable evidence that quantum interactions have an effect on the Brain .

Quote:
if we know all of the inputs.

erm, yeah, that’s the telling thing. If we knew all the inputs we’d be able to predict the weather for any amount of time in the future. The problem is, you can’t know all the variables, that’s a big part of Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle.

When you or anyone else, has written a computer program that accurately models the reactions and interactions of any Human being under any circumstances, come back to me

I never said that directing gravitons is more difficult than nanobots (although I would conjecture that it is) ... but, I would assert that the military potential for nano tech would get it higher priority than the general theoretical research that it would take to eventually control gravity.

I'm pretty sure our experiments into gravitational manipulation aren't as far along as our current state-of-the-art in nanotech. There are currently micro-scale robots that can do simple things, such as follow a line, by walking in a bi-pedal fashion. There are also Shape-Memory metals that can be actuated by a simple current. Of course there are research into bucky-balls (folded carbon nano-tubes) as mini-computers as well.

I would even submit that the Firefly 'verse has extremely advanced nanobots already. It would be one of the few ways to do the large-scale terraforming that is hinted at. Either small, versatile machinery that can go everywhere or really big complex machinery that handle various portions of the terraforming job....

As for meat computer vs quantum brains, only time will prove who's right, but I think that there can be sentient non-biological machinery. It's nice to think that consciousness is specific to humans by virtue of our meat, but I think it's only ego and vanity. Passing the Turing test [robots that can fool you well enough to pass as humans] are within reach, I believe. If a robot "acts" like it has a soul so well that we can't be sure ... would you deny that he does have one? Possibly you would ... but not everyone would be so quick to discount it ...

Tracking inputs into a person is pretty easy, ya know ... They come through only a few well-known paths. Touch (as well as smell and taste, I think) passes through the spinal column (for the most p

CITIZEN

Sunday, January 1, 2006 5:56 AM

Karnejj:
You make a convincing argument but the truth is in the details. Not once has 'John Doe' had his brain removed. His essence lies within, and that is never touched. Beyond that I think is beyond the scope of this thread, which is concerned with the science of Firefly, which John Doe goes beyond.

I don’t agree. There’s more to life than a simulation. At least a simulation that we can envision. As for your questions on the Human soul…

Please start a thread here about such things.

Not only will I read it but I'll post there, but your argument, which is the nature of the human soul ergo, is beyond the scope of this discussion. I hope to see you in that thread .

EDIT:
I see Nanotechnology as somewhat less powerful as a military tech than control of gravity, I also see it closer within our grasp in conserns to advanced robotic nano tech. I have seen nothing beyond simple gears that wear out within less than a second in that field. If you have more please post links, I'd like to see.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
Remember, the ice caps aren't melting, the water is being liberated.

FLETCH2

Sunday, January 1, 2006 6:05 AM

On Star Trek there are areas of research that the Federation "tip toes" around including anything that can be used to allow direct genetic manipulation -- supposedly a side effect of their Eugenics Wars.

Once it became clear that the Borg use nanomachines as part of their conversion process the Federation started using it too in later episodes of DS9 and in Voyager.

I am such a geek.

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 NEXT PAGE