Dirty brown coats

POSTED BY: neverfearsteveishere
UPDATED: Sunday, July 13, 2003 08:11
VIEWED: 7679
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JOHNNYREB

Friday, July 11, 2003 2:44 PM

History books end up dead?!

(Sorry, couldn't resist being a smartass.)

REGARDLESS! My browncoated bretheren are quite right. America wasn't founded by apathy and complacency. It was founded by a pack of malcontents and troublemakers. Hurrah for the Independence!

Viva Firefly!

KOFFEE

Friday, July 11, 2003 6:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JOHNNYREB:
America wasn't founded by apathy and complacency. It was founded by a pack of malcontents and troublemakers. Hurrah for the Independence!

My turn to be a smart ass....

[start smartassness] Wouldn't the Native Americans we waged war against for control of this county in the first place see "us" as the "Alliance" in our own way. After all, they were doing just fine without us coming in and taking "control" over their self-governments. Therefore making the "redskins" the true "Browncoats" of this nation?[/end smartassness]

Lets see what that stirs up.....

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“It's a real burn, being right so often.”

KAYTHRYN

Friday, July 11, 2003 6:48 PM

You know, I never saw the Alliance as being particularly bad. They were just a big ass government. The Alliance people think that they are doing the right thing-- helping people, colonizing the worlds, keeping law and order, etc. For a lot of people the Alliance is probably great, but that's not what we've gotten to see much of in FF.

Mostly because of the war the Independents see the Alliance as evil and untrustworthy and the Alliance sees the Independent the same way. Despite all of the good each group does or believes in only the bad really ever gets noticed.

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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

JOHNNYREB

Friday, July 11, 2003 7:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Koffee:
Quote:
Originally posted by JOHNNYREB:
America wasn't founded by apathy and complacency. It was founded by a pack of malcontents and troublemakers. Hurrah for the Independence!

My turn to be a smart ass....

[start smartassness] Wouldn't the Native Americans we waged war against for control of this county in the first place see "us" as the "Alliance" in our own way. After all, they were doing just fine without us coming in and taking "control" over their self-governments. Therefore making the "redskins" the true "Browncoats" of this nation?[/end smartassness]

Touche! There is no refuting your logic, Koffee; However, the word to pay attention to in my statement is America. I seriously doubt that the American Indians would have invented "America" as we know it, if left to their own devices. Therefore, the English colonists were the Browncoats of America. The Indians can be the Browncoats of the North American land mass. Either way, it's all good. (Assuming that winning or losing isn't a factor in browncoatedness.)

Viva Firefly!

VETERAN

Friday, July 11, 2003 11:28 PM

People like Niska seem to be able to operate quite well under strong central governments. In the Earth-that-was they had lots of words for them: Commissar, Godfather, Senator ...

NEVERFEARSTEVEISHERE

Friday, July 11, 2003 11:32 PM

ahhh. bigger the government the better.

Like a parent watchful over their children. A government, likewise shows that it cares when it is watchful over its billions of charges.

It needs to be big to show its institutional love to its citizens.

The browncoats just needed chastisement.

ARCHER

Friday, July 11, 2003 11:37 PM

I have this sense that Steve is being a bit tongue in cheek here, but what the hey...

First, consider the typical examples of Alliance folks we've been given. Now, the two of the three Alliance senior military officials we've seen were portrayed as somewhat stuffy but essentially honorable individuals. (Serenity and Bushwhacked... "Let's go help those people.")

Then we have the Blue Hands on the other end, along with Dobson and our good officer of the law from The Message.

One very telling element I caught in Trash was (Spoiler yadda yadda)

Select to view spoiler:

Yo-Saff-Bridg's depiction of her 'ex' as a biowarfare guy who slaughtered whole cities with his nasty bugs so he could go artifact hunting. Mal didn't blink an eye at the story, which indicates that quite likely bioweapons were used by the Alliance. Now that puts the Alliance in a much darker light indeed.

Ah well, not feeling terribly philosophical at the moment, nevertheless.

There ain't nothin' I can't overcome or come to know. So lay your heavy load down on me, strip everything I have away. I am not your prisoner, I am not afraid.

DRAKON

Saturday, July 12, 2003 8:36 AM

'Like a parent watchful over their children. A government, likewise shows that it cares when it is watchful over its billions of charges."

And this is why big governments are a bad idea, don't work and eventually crack. The more decisions you kick upstairs the less information is available to decide correctly. The larger the government, and the bigger the population, the more information is required to make a correct decision.

At the extreme, you got one guy deciding every little nuanced piddly thing for billions of people, based on nothing more than what he personally sees, hears and is told. And he is going to get a lot of it wrong.

In the case of governments, wrong can mean death, starvation, or worse for a lot of people.

It takes time to garner information, and communicate decisions, as well as the results and consequences of those decisions. Time that may not be in sufficient supply even if the information is available and communicated to the deciding authority. Information overload crushes big governments.

See Hayek

"My kind of stupid"

NEVERFEARSTEVEISHERE

Saturday, July 12, 2003 10:35 AM

some decisions can be made imediately. The alliance is considerate and operates the colonies on a loose leesh.

like the train job, when the soldiers just moved on and the alliance was dissinterested.

The sort of decisions that can be made for all quickly are benevolent rules of human rights, crime and punishment, stuff like that.

no doubt some of these festering colonies had divolved somewhat. One of them even tried to burn river as a witch!! Thats not right. And that not right law is no doubt part of alliance law. she nearly got burned alive, showing in that case more not less government is needed!

DRAKON

Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:16 AM

"some decisions can be made imediately." By whom? And at what level? What happens while the information is being transmitted up the chain, waiting for the decision to get made, then return down the chain to be implemented?

In the Train Job, the local commander of the troops was not allowed to investigate the near catastrophic loss of medical supplies. He did not have the authority. It is not clear that the commander on the ship did either. Suppose either of them thought this was important enough to investigate, would they be allowed to? And if they would be, how long before they could get started?

That is the problem with any sort of centralized decision making organization. It takes time and resources, plus not all the information required may be available. Sometimes the situation changes so fast that by the time the decision gets back to the local offical, its out of date.

Yes, River almost did get burned. But it was not the Alliance that saved her, but a bunch of folks who did not wait for any higher authority's permission to act as they saw fit. (And possibly violated several Alliance laws and rules in the process)

In Train Job, that is not consideration, or loose leash, that was dooming the colony to death, for failing to act either to prevent the theft, nor recover the goods. That is negligance of the highest and most dangerous order. Negligance that is going to be the norm any time you have the decision making body isolated from the local conditions.

Decisions that can be made "for all quickly" are not limited to the list you have. But also some pretty horrible things, like massacres, mass executions, concentration camps.

"my kind of stupid"

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