Firefly and the Heinlein Connection.

POSTED BY: Ruthie
UPDATED: Sunday, July 20, 2003 16:18
VIEWED: 18048
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MSCKAREN

Monday, June 30, 2003 2:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rayann:
I have no problem with people expressing disagreement with someone else's opinion, but I do believe that a certain amount of courtesy is due -- even to people who are ignorant, because they don't know any better. (That's not to say ignorant people should not be enlightened, just that there are better ways to do it than calling them ignorant.) And I apologize for any lack of courtesy I may have had towards Wulfhawk -- two wrongs do not make a right. I just don't like seeing people get torn apart, that's all.

I really hope no one's too pissed off at me, and I do apologize if I came across as arrogant or self-righteous. (I'm not. Really. )

You were right on target! I don't know why you're apologizing.

"Appears they've canceled the show and we're still here. What does that make us?"
"Big damn junkies, Sir!"
"Ain't we just."

MSCKAREN

Monday, June 30, 2003 2:34 AM

My favorites are "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and "I Shall Fear No Evil".

"Appears they've canceled the show and we're still here. What does that make us?"
"Big damn junkies, Sir!"
"Ain't we just."

SUCCATASH

Monday, June 30, 2003 2:35 AM

Ok, so let's go through all the rules of being a Firefly Fan:

1. Always get permission when posting Firefly material, except don't worry about ME or Fox.

2. When posting someone's fan art, make sure you mention that you got permission (don't worry about ME or Fox).

3. If you are going to post on this board, be sure to run your text through a spell chcker.

4. If you are going to disagree with someone, make sure you have a Masters degree in that field, or your opinion is worthless and you've insulted everyone.

5. Chris the Cynic is evil. For some reason.

RAYANN

Monday, June 30, 2003 3:08 AM

Quote:
You were right on target! I don't know why you're apologizing.

I'm not apologizing for the sentiments I expressed, just the manner in which I expressed them. Running in with guns a-blazing probably wasn't the best way to do things.

Oh, and in response to Succotash's request for Heinlein suggestions -- my dad, a major Heinlein fan, got me started with Starship Troopers and Glory Road. I'd say either book qualifies as a bad ass story that doesn't hold back. But the other suggestions are good, too, although I can't really comment on Number of the Beast, since it's one of the ones I still have to read.

Quote:
Every so often, when American presidents get me down, I give myself a giggle imagining the last couple trying to become eligible for citizenship in the world of Starship Trooper.

Lunatikat, that does produce some great mental images.

Wonder who would've lasted longer, Clinton or Dubya?

SERGEANTX

Monday, June 30, 2003 3:36 AM

Tash, read "Time Enough for Love". I'm surprised not many mention it here. It was my first Heinlein and still my favorite.

Now, as far all this feminism/misogyny stuff...

I'd be interested to hear why Riverside thinks Heinlein is misogynistic. It's been my impression that Heinlein adores women. But, it seems, many women don't want to be adored. They see this kind of adulation as a trap designed to keep them in traditional roles that they find demeaning. And Heinlein does seem to hold up as admirable female traits many qualities that some feminists might see as products of societal conditioning rather than inherent attributes of women. In particular several of Heinleins female characters seem quite comfortable using sex to their advantage.

I don't agree with this point of view. I think it gives in to stereotypes of conservative male bigots that, in fact, Heinlein seems to enjoy tweaking. It prejudges him and dismisses him in the same way many modern liberals dimiss the libertarian movement as 'ultra right wing' (and Heinlein was both libertarian and a libertine IMHO).

Anyway, my main motivation for posting was in hopes that Riverside would explain her point of view. If we haven't already scared her off that is.

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

WULFHAWK

Monday, June 30, 2003 4:24 AM

Rayann, guns blazin is just fine, if you're prepared to be shot back at. I reckon you've done admireably. If you wanna declare a truce, I'm all for it, so long as I don't hafta apologize ... unless, of course, a lady would ask a gent to do so.

The reason I took offense to riverside's casual slander is that Heinlein had often been falsely accused of being against womens rights and mistreating women, based on his absolutely equal treatment. It was long ago, but still some student or even professor dredges up some old article to prove that the early science fiction authors were evil. Heinlein was just a dirty, chauvenist, hairy man, the kinda guy who left his wife of many years for a 19 year old student, only to come crawling back...just a guy who served our country, and had a certain genius for writing. Which, of course, means he was human.

tanstaafl

RIVERSIDE

Monday, June 30, 2003 5:06 AM

Public rudeness? Note the use of the words "I think" usually used to preface an opinion, not a screaming declaration of ultimate truth. To be honest, I have only read one of Heinlein's books...it has Lazarus Long in it but that's all I remember about it, and I percieved the constant references to woman's highest accomplishment as childbirth (even when she had no interest in raising her multitudes of children), and her place as recreation for men as misogynistic, despite the assurances that she was super intelligent, and accomplished at other things. If anything a super-intelligent woman who considers herself a plaything and a baby-making machine is even more offensive. However, as that was many, many years ago, perhaps I jumped to conclusions, and in fact Heinlein was making a point about how dysfunctional this particular fictional world was, or perhaps in this particular novel he was working out rage against his mother or ex-wife or something. I'm afraid that that being the first book I read by Heinlein, followed shortly by my Heinlein obsessed boyfriend reading excerpts from Grumbles from the Grave to me, I was not inclined to read more. Also if you will notice I didn't say anything about knowing Joss' innermost heart, I only said I hadn't seen anything that I would perceive as misogynistic in his work. I'm sorry if my very short post was unclear on that point. I don't think anything in my post is bashing in any way, rather it was just a different opinion than is being expressed here. I don't come to boards to bash people, and now that I am aware that this thread is the I Love Heinein thread, not a discussion of Firefly and Heinlein, I won't bother people in it anymore. Although, I will reiterate that my intention was not to bash anyone and certainly not to debate, just to express a different opinion. I am very sorry if I have upset or in any way emotionally damaged any of my fellow browncoats. Please accept my humble apologies.

Sincerely,
riverside

btw, Wulfhawk, I know what it is to have a favorite author be maligned and I myself have been known to get a bit worked up in their defense.

My Post:
Well, I'm sure from a sci-fi point of view there are probably some Heinlein leanings. However, I don't like to put Joss in the same catagory, because I think Heinlein was extremely misogynistic and I've never seen anything like that in Joss' work.

CHRISTHECYNIC Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 16:40

Quote: Originally posted by Riverside:Well, I'm sure from a sci-fi point of view there are probably some Heinlein leanings. However, I don't like to put Joss in the same catagory, because I think Heinlein was extremely misogynistic and I've never seen anything like that in Joss' work. I just looked up the word "misogynistic" because I was sure I misunderstood you. Unless you used the word wrong I didn't.I haven’t read nearly as much Heinlien as most of you but I never saw anything to suggest his works showed anything other than totally equally treatment of women. In Starship Trooper the narrator repeatedly pointed out how in several areas women were better than men, if you think its wrong that he also show places where men are better than women I hate to break it to you but it’s true. The diffrence is chemical, not genetic like people thought in the past (a female child born of a mother injected with testosterone would be classified as male with respect to these differences.)Still even if he had been completely sexist it would still be a stretch to call him misogynistic. That is very harsh nd I have seen no evidence of it at all.He was a chauvinist, but not a male chauvinist, a human chauvinist. That includes women if you didn’t notice.I am forced to wonder if you have really read his works.His writings have been described as having feminism by more people than just the Sergeant. As I said my friend loves Heinlein, and she would never stand for sexism (for or against women.)Quote: Originally posted by SergeantX:I saw a strong connection with Heinlein's point of view from the very first episode of Fir

WULFHAWK

Monday, June 30, 2003 6:25 AM

Riverside, I'm sorry for my little bashing. Sometimes I do indeed get carried away. I think you caught me the wrong way with the 'misogynistic' thing. Unless your dictionary is different from mine, that's pretty not nice.

And the other thing, where you compared Joss and Robert, what was that about? A grandmaster of speculative literature who was a social leader of his time, compared to a television writer/producer who's portrayal of women as underfed, underclothed sex objects doesn't seem PC to me. See what I mean? On the other hand, even Zoe wants to have a baby, how can that be bad?

Again, sorry for the crotchetyness. Maybe I'm misogynistic, too?

Did I mention that I dearly love to get into BB duels?

tanstaafl

MANIACNUMBERONE

Monday, June 30, 2003 6:58 AM

I don't think women want to be adored, they want to be loved.

RAYANN

Monday, June 30, 2003 7:05 AM

Quote:
Rayann, guns blazin is just fine, if you're prepared to be shot back at. I reckon you've done admireably. If you wanna declare a truce, I'm all for it, so long as I don't hafta apologize ... unless, of course, a lady would ask a gent to do so.

A couple of years ago, I probably would have done the "guns blazin" thing simply to get someone to shoot back, but I like to think I've grown past that particular phase. (Mostly, anyway. I'm still dreadfully quarrelsome from time to time.) So yeah, I think I'm ready for a truce. I don't expect an apology or anything like that; I'd say we're all even here.

I understand why you reacted as you did to Riverside's comments. I've dealt with one too many of those self-labelled "feminists" who obviously don't know the meaning of the word -- women who whine that they don't get equal treatment, and then whine again when they do. Heinlein's writing has always been quite fair in dealing with men and women on equal ground, and I think that upsets many women who think that feminism means that they should have all the opportunities as men without having to work to obtain them -- not to mention that Heinlein doesn't gloss over the fact that there are some situations where women aren't men's equals, just as there are some situations where men aren't women's equals. So I can definitely identify with your frustration at Heinlein being falsely branded as being anti-female, when in truth he was just being honest (in my humble opinion).

(For the record, I am not suggesting that Riverside is the sort of person I have described. Also for the record, I consider myself to be a feminist, in the traditional sense of the word. So I have nothing against feminism, just against women who seem to think it means women are better than men.

)

lol, I've veered rather wildly from the original topic of this thread. In regards to the Heinlein connection to 'Firefly', I definitely see a lot of the same libertarian spirit reflected in Malcolm Reynolds and his crew, as well as the afore-mentioned feminism. I also see a common thread in the particular brand of humor that many of the 'Firefly' characters possess. I can't think of any specific comparisons to back this up, but it's just sort of a vibe I get, I guess. (Hopefully I'm making some sense to someone other than myself, lol.) I would not be at all surprised if Heinlein was one of Joss Whedon's early influences.

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