Firefly and the Heinlein Connection.
POSTED BY: Ruthie
UPDATED: Sunday, July 20, 2003 16:18
VIEWED: 18048
PAGE 3 of 7
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Originally posted by CaptainMal:
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress -
Classic SF with plenty of Heinlein's unique style.
Absolutely! One of his best works if I may say so and, if you're ever planning a revolution, a must read for some of the advanced techniques!
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Starship Troopers -
Good SF, heavy on philosophising
There are two types of professional soldier in the world. The ones who love Starship Troopers and the ones who have yet to read it. John Ringo - Ex-Airborne and Mil-Sci-Fi writer swears that all soldiers love this book.
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A collection of short stories which includes several excellent stories, most noteably "All You Zombies" and "He Built a Crooked House"
[This one is, I understand, VERY hard to find]
I have a copy of 'And he built a crooked house' in a sci-fi anthology... I think it demonstrates RAH's greatest strength and also his greatest weakness... The guy was a genius. Unfortunately he used that genius to create stories that have this theoretical mathematical structure behind them that can be very difficult to grasp... He's always going on about Teseracts and non-euclidian geometry... It's great stuff but difficult to understand in places.
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Number of The Beast -
Be warned: It's HUGE, and it is chock full of references to a variety of SF characters from his other works and the works of others. If you're not familiar with all these folks you miss 2/3 of the joy of the book.
Imagine the old saw about how "all the fictional characters ever writtien actually exist in some alternate universe" and then imagine these universes intersecting so that, for instance, Jim Kirk might find himself at common purpose with Malcolm Reynolds and Han Solo.
It's that sort of thing.
Number of the Beast was the first Heinlein book I ever read. I loved it! Like most Heinlein books it's quite racy when you read it at 13, there's nudity all over the place and frank descriptions of sex and everything else. Not to mention that it was really educational... You had to learn a hell of a lot to puzzle stuff out. Not to mention that it introduced me to the Barsoom books. And the Lensman books for that matter.
However, like the film Mallrats, you have to read it first because if you read it after other Heinlein books then you realise how crap it is... Well, not crap, but flawed. Read it first, get hooked, then proceed to the really good stuff.
:biggrin It's actually quite funny... He thought he was being all cool and up-to-date by giving his computer 40 Megs of Hard Drive... Nowdays you can buy washing machines with more than that!
"You're a smart girl, Gay"
"Then why are you shacked up with the strawberry blonde with the fat knockers?"
I say start with Number, then move on to Starship Troopers, Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Space Cadet.
If all you're after is Sci-Fi porn then 'To Sail Beyond the Sunset' has it in spades
Twelve spheres of unendurable brightness spalled the velvety blackness of space.
The silence on Lester Tourville's flag bridge was absolute
And then the spell was broken as Shannon Foraker looked up from her console from where she had just sent a seemingly innocent command to the main computers of State Security's finest Superdreadnoughts.
"Oops." She said.
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Dear Succatash,
The first Heinlein novel I ever read still strikes me as an excellent introduction to his work: Have Space Suit, Will Travel.
It's a young adult category novel, so don't expect too complicated a story line, but his philosophy of life shines through clear and bright: Take personal responsibility for your life and decisions and their consequences, Never Give Up-Never Surrender (pardon me, Questerians), Be loyal unto death to your friends and family (in this case, to your planet and species). I was eleven and I credit him with embedding those values in me. So I owe much of my character and the life I have to him. I will say, though, that as with all the rest of us humans and writers, he had his flaws. I must disagree here with Mr. theCynic (on the subject of RAH's flawlessness), though as a fellow hero-worshiper of Mr. Heinlein, I sympathise with his distress at the thought of the great man being maligned in any way. In fact, normally I wouldn't mention his human capacity towards flaw, but I do believe that, unwarned, the first time that RAH disappointed you in any way, you might overreact if built up to an unrealistic expectation previously.
I almost envy you your position, you have so many many wonderful hours of reading ahead of you.
Re Starship Trooper, I enjoyed the movie. It has almost zero to do with the book, but the only thing I regret about it is that some people may never read the book thinking that the movie has given them what the book had to offer. Every so often, when American presidents get me down, I give myself a giggle imagining the last couple trying to become eligible for citizenship in the world of Starship Trooper. Sorry to run on so. Reread Door Into Summer just yesterday and then saw these posts, eerie.
Lunatikat, Scourge of the Spaceways and registered dog nurse.
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Quote:
There are two types of professional soldier in the world. The ones who love Starship Troopers and the ones who have yet to read it. John Ringo - Ex-Airborne and Mil-Sci-Fi writer swears that all soldiers love this book.
It is really funny you said that, I read my first copy of Starship Troopers when I swapped books with my Sergeant sitting in trenches up in Wainwright Alberta during a field exercise.
Hooked me on Heinlein, though there have been many mentioned here I'm am going to be keeping an eye open for next time I am through the bookstore.
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Whoops, kind of telescoped Mr. THECYNIC and Mr. Wulfie there, my apologies.
Lunatikat, in search of sanity without a map
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Never been a huge fan of Heinlein myself (my favorite book of his is probably "Past Through Tomorrow", but I prefer Philip Dick, Ursula Le Guin, Samuel Delany, and William Gibson, to name a random few), but there are definitely strong connections between "Firefly" and Heinlein, particularly in the independent, capitalistic, anti-authoritian, libertarian Mal, who'd probably be right at home in a Heinlein novel -- of course, Mal had to suffer through a profound loss of faith in order to get where he is today.
Not sure how much of the connection is conscious, though -- Joss has been quoted as citing John Ford as a major influence, and Mal could also be seen as a slightly nicer version of the embittered ex-Confederate soldier Ethan Edwards in "The Searchers". And not that it really matters a huge deal, but I suspect that Joss's politics -- which include, in addition to feminism, a deep ambivalence towards war and capitalism -- tend to be fairly different from Heinlein's
And while there are enough strong women in Heinlein's work throughout his career to make any claim of misogyny pretty flimsy (Friday in particularly is a prototypical kick-ass female heroine), I wouldn't call him a pioneer, either. In his early works, at least, I think that Heinlein was pretty much on par with his Campbellian (John, not Joseph, natch) contemporaries like Asimov, Clarke, Alfred Bester, Ted Sturgeon, etc., whose work was generally devoid of any overtly sexist content (and who were generally more forward-thinking than their mainstream peers), but who also tended to propagate a fairly traditional picture of the world, wherein the future is owned and made by white males. Certainly, Heinlein didn't grapple with issues of gender as directly or as powerfully as Le Guin or Joanna Russ, or, for that matter, Joss. (Although again, to be fair, Heinlein came earlier)
And a quick note about feminism: while I, like ChrisTheCynic, am sometimes a bit uncomfortable with radical feminist rhetoric, I think it is important to realize that it's not just as simple or easy as waving your hands and saying, "Oh, men and women should be treated equal," since the fact is that in modern society they are not, and that there are still a lot of cultural and structural prejudices that need to be overcome.
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*Jumps to Wulfy‘s defense with sabre in hand*
Hehehe, okay, not really.
Rayann, good to hear a opinions by people who remain calm and do not resort to “whaa, because I said so” or “you’re stinky”-- but, I want to say that I think you’re wrong about Wulfy. I don’t know if you’ve hung around her for awhile and just signed up as a member today or not, but Wulfy is a great person to have a literary discussion with-- and I mean that without the sarcasm. Also, he never said that he had some sort of special insight on Heinlein's "innermost self", just that Heinlein was sort of a “Great Hero” of his.
And lastly,
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Posted by Rayann:
My apologies to everyone else on the board for this post, which is hardly in a friendly spirit, but the one thing I cannot stand is a blatant and undeserved bashing of someone just because they expressed an opinion.
I agree but this is what Wulf really said is--
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Posted by Wulf:
Your ignorance is nearly unforgiveable. First, you have a right to an opinion, but to debate with others BASED ON YOUR UNINFORMED opinions clearly declares your belief in our stupidity and ignorance...a deadly insult.
He’s all for opinions too. Gotta say opinions are great, but people who argue, but don’t know a thing about the stuff they are arguing about, annoy me all to hell just the same.
-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle
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Riverside, in her statement about Heinlein's anti-female leanings, assumed I was too ignorant to know better, that I was too foolish to doubt her mistake, and too stupid to respond. I don't ask your permission to be insulted by such assumptions, rayann, and your little lecture on art and literature was almost as bad.
As for comparing the works of Heinlein to the works of Whedon, with an eye to derive a comparison of misogynistic tendencies, just how is that possible? Riverside does claim to do so, rayann. Is she comparing Hazel Stone to Zoe, or Friday to Buffy? Or has she read the Misogynistic Interviews of both men? Again, she expresses seeming ignorance as informed opinion, and you, rayann, seem to be ok with this?
Riverside, and you, rayann, have the right, privilege, and duty to express your opinions. Of course, the delicious irony is, I also may express my opinion, and it may well be about your voiced opinion. Posting a statement that falsely accuses Heinlein of woman-bashing is sure to draw fire, especially if I read it, and may just involve some bashing back....after all, the guy is dead and can't defend himself.
I do applaud your honor and bravery, rayann, for blindly and misguidedly leaping to riverside's defense. My sarcasm and exaggeration might have been a tad overdone, my statement a little abrasive (very like your's, rayann), but hey, with your example, I see now that it was ok. Ironic, ain't it?
Tash, Chris's obvious intelligence is marred to the point of unreadability by bad grammer, spelling, punctuation, and a certain irritating pomposity...hmmm, that last seems familiar...
Chis, dude, come on man, just a little effort is all I'm askin.
Ya'll try and excuse my crankiness 8)
tanstaafl
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Quote:I really appreciate your post.
Originally posted by Lunatikat:
Dear Succatash,
The first Heinlein novel I ever read still strikes me as an excellent introduction to his work: Have Space Suit, Will Travel.
It's a young adult category novel, so don't expect too complicated a story line...
However, one of my goals is to avoid Young Adult literature, I'm looking for a bad ass story that doesn't hold back. Any suggestions?
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Quote:
Of course, the delicious irony is, I also may express my opinion, and it may well be about your voiced opinion.
And I have no problem with that. However, I do believe that it is possible to comment on someone else's opinion without demeaning the person or their opinion.
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I do applaud your honor and bravery, rayann, for blindly and misguidedly leaping to riverside's defense. My sarcasm and exaggeration might have been a tad overdone, my statement a little abrasive (very like your's, rayann), but hey, with your example, I see now that it was ok. Ironic, ain't it?
I don't recall calling you ignorant, accusing you of being creepy, or giving you the "finger" emoticon. All I said was that you were being rude, which, by your own admission, you were. Perhaps I could have been less caustic. *shrug*
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Also, he never said that he had some sort of special insight on Heinlein's "innermost self", just that Heinlein was sort of a “Great Hero” of his.
Kaythryn, I didn't mean to imply that he had said anything of the sort, and I apologize if it came across that way. I just meant to demonstrate that Riverside was no more claiming to have special insight on Joss than Wulfhawk was claiming to have on Heinlein -- which is to say, none. And believe me, I read the part where he said he believed in the right to have opinions, but it did not seem to me that the rest of the post supported that claim.
Look, I know that my first post was a little harsh, and I did not mean to attack Wulfhawk as a person. I certainly didn't mean to bore him with my "little lecture on art and literature" (all those stupid AP English classes have this unfortunate tendancy to surface at really bad times). However, it bothers me when I see people being rude to each other, and I see it a lot on message boards (not this one specifically), which is why I generally lurk rather than post.
I have no problem with people expressing disagreement with someone else's opinion, but I do believe that a certain amount of courtesy is due -- even to people who are ignorant, because they don't know any better. (That's not to say ignorant people should not be enlightened, just that there are better ways to do it than calling them ignorant.) And I apologize for any lack of courtesy I may have had towards Wulfhawk -- two wrongs do not make a right. I just don't like seeing people get torn apart, that's all.
I really hope no one's too pissed off at me, and I do apologize if I came across as arrogant or self-righteous. (I'm not. Really.
)
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