Firefly and the Heinlein Connection.

POSTED BY: Ruthie
UPDATED: Sunday, July 20, 2003 16:18
VIEWED: 18048
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CHRISTHECYNIC

Sunday, June 29, 2003 2:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverside:
Well, I'm sure from a sci-fi point of view there are probably some Heinlein leanings. However, I don't like to put Joss in the same catagory, because I think Heinlein was extremely misogynistic and I've never seen anything like that in Joss' work.

I just looked up the word "misogynistic" because I was sure I misunderstood you. Unless you used the word wrong I didn't.

I haven’t read nearly as much Heinlien as most of you but I never saw anything to suggest his works showed anything other than totally equally treatment of women. In Starship Trooper the narrator repeatedly pointed out how in several areas women were better than men, if you think its wrong that he also show places where men are better than women I hate to break it to you but it’s true. The diffrence is chemical, not genetic like people thought in the past (a female child born of a mother injected with testosterone would be classified as male with respect to these differences.)

Still even if he had been completely sexist it would still be a stretch to call him misogynistic. That is very harsh nd I have seen no evidence of it at all.

He was a chauvinist, but not a male chauvinist, a human chauvinist. That includes women if you didn’t notice.

I am forced to wonder if you have really read his works.

His writings have been described as having feminism by more people than just the Sergeant. As I said my friend loves Heinlein, and she would never stand for sexism (for or against women.)

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I saw a strong connection with Heinlein's point of view from the very first episode of Firefly. From ... the particular brand of feminism represented

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

Feminism is defined as the belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.

I find it ironic that the loudest of the Feminists do not believe in this.

GINOBIFFARONI

Sunday, June 29, 2003 4:34 AM

Considering that more of Heinlein's work was written 1955-1965, I would say he was a pioneer for the Feminist movement. He wrote of an equality from a perspective of his day. It may seem rather dated today but back then... it was new stuff completely.

Some of the best parts of Starship Trooper were the discussions of social order, the duties of a citizen, here Heinlein apllied no boundaries to sex or race.

In a Cat that walks through walls, the main character is saved repeatedly by women from the future acting in combat roles.

Love his work, or not so much I don't think you can rightly say misogynistic.

WULFHAWK

Sunday, June 29, 2003 7:44 PM

Riverside, did you have to look up misogynistic? Or maybe you should have? Or maybe you should actually READ some Heinlein before bashing?

I don't approve of public rudeness (something Heinlein's characters helped teach me), but I see no other way to address your post.

Your ignorance is nearly unforgiveable. First, you have a right to an opinion, but to debate with others BASED ON YOUR UNINFORMED opinions clearly declares your belief in our stupidity and ignorance...a deadly insult. Second, your creepy belief that you know Joss Whedon's innermost self well enough to compare him to anyone is, well, creepy...and thouroughly unconvincing. Third, and to me most important, Robert Anson Heinlein was and is one my Great Heros and I will brook no insult or put-downs.

And Chris? Type your damn posts in a wordprocessor program first, run the damn spellchecker, then paste it here, OK? I hate to share opinions with posts that look like yours.

tanstaafl

SUCCATASH

Sunday, June 29, 2003 8:17 PM

On a happier note, I want to read some Heinlein, where do I start? I am a virgin.

CAPTAINMAL

Sunday, June 29, 2003 8:20 PM

wulf, with respect, if Chris' post is too poorly spelled for your standards, I don't know how you exist on message boards. His writing might not be perfect but his thoughts are perfectly understandable and coherent.

If that post isn't up to your standards, you will spend a good deal of on-line time being disappointed.

Few people take the time and effort in what is designed to be casual conversation to run every post through a WP program to clean it up - I'm DARN certain I'm not going to.

And no doubt there are more errors in this post than in Chris'

Not saying you don't have a right to be bothered by it, just saying - don't get your hopes up that you're ever going to see others be cumpulsive enough to do what you suggest.

"Why we still discussin' this?"

CAPTAINMAL

Sunday, June 29, 2003 8:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
On a happier note, I want to read some Heinlein, where do I start? I am a virgin.

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress -

Classic SF with plenty of Heinlein's unique style.

Glory Road -

The best marriage of classic Fantasy elements with hard SF I've ever seen.

Starship Troopers -

Good SF, heavy on philosiphizing

Stranger in a Strange Land -

Most notorious work, very libritarian sensibilities

The Unlplesent Proffesion of Jonathan Hoag (also released as "6 x H") -

A collection of short stories which includes several excellent stories, most noteably "All You Zombies" and "He Built a Crooked House"
[This one is, I understand, VERY hard to find]

Expanded Universe -

A collection of short stories, and also science fact articles, each with a personal introduction from RAH giving some background into the writing of the peice and what went on in his life between the works. For a true Heinlien fan it is an indespesible look "behind the scenes."
Worht noting is his forst story "Life Line", his first major Future History story "The Man Who Sold The Moon" and a couple of non-SF peices: "They Do It With Mirrors" and "No Bands Playing, No Flags Flying"

Number of The Beast -

Be warned: It's HUGE, and it is chock full of references to a variety of SF characters from his other works and the works of others. If you're not familiar with all these folks you miss 2/3 of the joy of the book.
Imagine the old saw about how "all the fictional characters ever writtien actually exist in some alternate universe" and then imagine these universes intersecting so that, for instance, Jim Kirk might find himself at common purpose with Malcolm Reynolds and Han Solo.
It's that sort of thing.

Also worth a mention:

Puppet Master
Sixth Column
Methuselah's Children
Farnham's Freehold

"Why we still discussin' this?"

SUCCATASH

Sunday, June 29, 2003 9:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainMal:
wulf, with respect, if Chris' post is too poorly spelled for your standards, I don't know how you exist on message boards. His writing might not be perfect but his thoughts are perfectly understandable and coherent.

I'm guessing it's really not about the spelling. It's the anti-ctcism that's contagious on this board. I've been trying to unravel the mystery for weeks.

When Chris the Cynic speaks, he gets attacked. Just look at his other previous posts.

???

SUCCATASH

Sunday, June 29, 2003 9:14 PM

Thanks for the long post about Heinlein books. I copy/pasted to keep handy. I'm going to start with Heinlein as soon as I finish "In Conquest Born" by C.S. Friedman.

KAYTHRYN

Sunday, June 29, 2003 9:33 PM

Quote:
Posted by Wulf:
Your ignorance is nearly unforgiveable. First, you have a right to an opinion, but to debate with others BASED ON YOUR UNINFORMED opinions clearly declares your belief in our stupidity and ignorance...a deadly insult…

And Chris? Type your damn posts in a wordprocessor program first, run the damn spellchecker, then paste it here, OK? I hate to share opinions with posts that look like yours.

Ditto. Wulfy, thanks for saying it.

Quote:
Posted by CaptainMal:
wulf, with respect, if Chris' post is too poorly spelled for your standards, I don't know how you exist on message boards….
Not saying you don't have a right to be bothered by it, just saying - don't get your hopes up that you're ever going to see others be cumpulsive enough to do what you suggest.

Everybody makes silly little mistakes, but it’s just common courtesy that if you are going to post a message you at least look over it and make sure it's readable. This isn’t like chat, you do have a moment to capitalize your sentences or add periods.

And Succatash, I recommend reading JOB. I didn’t even know I’d read any Heinlein until I started talking to someone about it and remembered this battered book I picked up during art one day. It was a great book and from what weirdness I know about you, I’d be right up your alley.

I loved it.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

RAYANN

Sunday, June 29, 2003 10:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfhawk:

Your ignorance is nearly unforgiveable. First, you have a right to an opinion, but to debate with others BASED ON YOUR UNINFORMED opinions clearly declares your belief in our stupidity and ignorance...a deadly insult. Second, your creepy belief that you know Joss Whedon's innermost self well enough to compare him to anyone is, well, creepy...and thouroughly unconvincing. Third, and to me most important, Robert Anson Heinlein was and is one my Great Heros and I will brook no insult or put-downs.

Okay, so if someone has a different interpretation of something than you do, you consider that an insult? Wow, you'd be a really fun person to have a literary discussion with. The thing about literature, as with all art, is that people have vastly different tastes and interpretations. Even scholars disagree on the meanings of novels; some brand Zora Neale Hurston's Their Eyes Were Watching God as degrading to women, while others praise it as an empowering feminist story.

Now, for the record, I agree with you. I've never detected anything resembling misogyny in Heinlein's work, quite the opposite in fact. However, that doesn't mean that I -- or anyone else, for that matter -- have the right to dismiss someone who disagrees with me as "uninformed" or accuse them of never having read Heinlein. Obviously, Riverside has a different opinion of Heinlein than you or I. That doesn't mean she's never read his work or that she's ignorant, and it certainly doesn't mean that she's insulting us. It just means that she sees different things in Heinlein's work than we do -- in this case, things that she doesn't like. Well, she's allowed to! The world would be boring if everyone had the same opinions on everything.

And tell me, where exactly did Riverside profess her "creepy belief" of knowing Joss Whedon's "innermost self"? She said nothing to this effect. She said:

Quote:
...I've never seen anything like that in Joss' work.

Not to mention that you seem to have some pretty strong feelings about Heinlein's character -- you are very quick to jump to the defense of your "Great Hero". Do you have some sort of special insight on Heinlein's "innermost self"?

I find it deliciously ironic that you bawl someone out for the "deadly insult" of daring to have an opinion different than yours. If anyone is being insulting, it is you. It seems that you haven't learned the difference between disagreement and disrespect, in which case I really do feel sorry for you, because people are not always going to agree with you -- believe it or not, there are a lot of people out there who don't like Heinlein -- and if you subject everyone who dares to voice a different opinion to this sort of ill-mannered tirade, you will not make a lot of friends.

My apologies to everyone else on the board for this post, which is hardly in a friendly spirit, but the one thing I cannot stand is a blatant and undeserved bashing of someone just because they expressed an opinion.

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