Political Common Ground
POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 00:16
VIEWED: 5611
PAGE 3 of 5
Chris,
You've been watching too much Lexx.
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Immigration.
I’m pro-immigration, particularly the fair legal kind. Build a wall along the southern border; put barbed wire on top of it. Eliminate restrictions on reporting illegal immigrants. Arrest and deport illegal immigrants. Provide a worker program for foreigners who wish to work in the US. Make it accountable to the law.
Budget.
I’m pro-budget, particularly the balanced kind. Balanced budgets are necessary in the long run, but not so much in the short run. You can’t balance the budget when your economy is weak; we’ll just drive ourselves further in the whole. There’s nothing balanced about a program that seeks to pay down a loan by sacrificing economy power. Build our assets first, then use the revenue provided by a strong economy to pay off the loans; that’s the way a balanced budget works.
Business.
I’m pro-business. I’m also pro-law, and pro-business following the law, and pro-criminals being arrested when they commit crimes in the name of business.
Education.
I’m pro-education, but not the state kind. State education should be state education. It should be designed to provide a functional, not elegant, education to generate useful citizens of the state. Teachers should be paid well, but educated in strict accordance to state policy. Students should be evaluated to assure that they are meeting strict minimum standards set by the state. Those standards should be high, but should also allow for various education/career paths. To each to his abilities, as the saying goes. Teachers’ jobs should be tied directly to how well their students do, no excuses. All students will be required to wear uniforms and recite the pledge of allegiance. Failure to adhere to these strict policies should result in state sanctioned punishment not excluding imprisonment. That’s the way a state school should work, and the truth is that if our state schools did work that way, I think we would probably have much better educated children.
Now, for those people who aren’t interested in the state school, they should have the option to send their children to a private school. You can find all kinds of private schools to meet all kinds of life-styles, politics and education choices. I would even be in favor of allowing a system by which the state would help you finance such a school, say through some kind of voucher system, maybe.
Environment.
I’m pro-environment. I think we need more science and less scare tactics. I think we need to invest in alternative forms of energy and other environmentally friendly options. I think we, as a people, need to pay close attention to which business’ our dollars go to. And I think we have no hope of fixing or protecting the environment if we destroy our economy.
Welfare.
I’m anti-welfare, but I think it should be a safety net. If I had to choose, I think I prefer having a high-paying job to welfare. We should encourage people to our greatest effort to avoid welfare and get off it as soon as possible. Welfare is a cushion to catch you when you fall, not a lifestyle. Welfare moneys dispersed should be in the form of vouchers. NO actual dollars should be provided to welfare recipients, except as an incentive. Disbursements of welfare vouchers should be very strictly controlled and qualified for specific items. Qualification for welfare should be reevaluated yearly. In general, those without children under 18 years of age will be limited to a maximum of two years of welfare in a ten year period. Incentives and encouragements should be provided to welfare recipients to seek employment, career change or education.
Healthcare.
I’m pro-healthcare. If competition can turn artificially flavored carbonated water into major world wide industries that provide their goods to nations that don’t even have potable water, then it can certainly spread healthcare around our little corner of the world.
Military.
I’m pro-military. I don’t know what else to say about that. I just am, trust me.
Personal Freedom.
I’m pro-personal
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Sorry, my brain fell out. Stuffing it back in always entails logical inconsistantsies (and sp errors, it seems...)
Chrisisall
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I was gonna post something serious, but I realize that it was going to be a not-as-well-put version of basically what you posted, Finn (except the barbed wire).
Oh, and the welfare voucher thing- I'd add community food and clothing centers, so kids that needed clothes or meals could get them, and bad parents couldn't abuse their kids as meal-tickets (I guess I seen too many poor families with fat parents and skinny kids...).
Chrisisall
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Dreamtrove, you seem to misunderstand how the Senate works and that there is compromise in Congress, just not nearly as much as we would like. I have family and friends who work for Congress so I have probably a good idea how it actually works.
So compromise on education...
I will filibuster any attempt to take funds away from public schools for private schools, which I see an an attempt to undermine our education system, especially for poorer children. OK this is now off the table, deal with it.
You want choice and competition to be brought into our school system and something must be done along these lines of you will filibuster any education plan. OK this must be in our plan, so I have to deal with this.
For a compromise I toss out the idea of charter schools to be formed under the oversight of the local school board. As long as they are non-profit entities and had public oversight I would even support federal funding. I would also support choice for students to pick between schools in a district, including charter schools, as long as this was not discriminatory. I would also support tax exemptions for private schools and homeschooling to further foster choice. This is a reasonable proposal and would be an improvement over the current status quo.
I would drop my demands for the end of standardized tests, but would still be shooting for something to lower class sizes and increase local control over resources.
Now you can counter offer if you like and we go from there.
Dreamtrove, I am sorry your school board is corrupt, perhaps you should run for office or support someone who will change things. I have lived in several counties with good and bad school boards and the difference is the level of public involvement. It takes work but change can be accomplished.
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KJC, I am very very familiar with how the Senate works. Trust me on this. If the Republicans wanted to railroad through an uncompromising right wing bill, they could get about 8 democrats on their side from previously owed favors, and that would give them 63 votes. That's way more than enough to pass legislation.
You can't honestly say that your program which looks like choice for the rich, mandated badness for the poor is pro-poor folk. Remember those classy public schools are also for rich folks, because the tax and spend system is localized by district, which is why black people don't get jack.
Fillibuster isn't really a compromise. I must've missed the demand to end standardized tests. I have to give that my Wha??? The way I see it, every child that leaves the public school system saves the govt. 15K as it stands right now. 17K if they're white.
Okay, back to the compromise plan.
The state, an institution which get's it's money through taxation, which is really no different than robbing people at gunpoint, since if you don't pay, you go to jail, cannot be infinitely superior to a corporation, which gets its money by providing goods and services that people elect to purchase. Capitalist private sector corporations are far more democratic than any govt. could ever be.
Before I offer a counter compromise, I have to say I can't support the not-for profit restriction for this reason:
The profit motive is necessary to evolution. A successful model will stay a freak if it is a lone non-profit entity. As a for-profit corporation, it can spread if successful.
But, and here's the compromise. I see some of your concerns. The Walmart School or its equivalent would be bad. It would deliberately undermine other schools to put them out of business while preying on fears, and cost cutting on teachers.
In addition, the conglomerat education subsidiary would possibly be bad. I see the possibility of AOL School funnelling off money spent on education and rather than using it to build more schools might use it for to subsidize Money Magazine or something.
So some sort of additional criteria for accreditation as yet not define could be set up that may include but not be limited to: Mandating a dedicated education company that does not engage in unfair competitive practices and does not engage in other non-educational activities, and does abide by fair labor standards.
This would allow the for-profit corporation, which I think is necessary for free market competition, and thus the evolution of the best working models, but ban perhaps some less desirable traits of independent business.
I will not support a tax exemption under any circumstances. Tax exemption is equivalent to a federal voucher, but in an unbalanced way favoring the rich. As a member of the conservative poor, why would I ever ever accept such a proposal?
But I did budge a little, so get back to me.
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I would consider for-profit charter schools (with the conditions you gave) on the condition that the local school board would of course retain the ability to revoke a charter and state funding. Public oversight is too important and this would be a good check on these private enterprises.
I also would contend that no preference be given for charters (and state funding) between profit and non-profit charter schools, equal playing field.
I would not support state funding going directly to private schools that are not controlled by a public institution.
As for tax exemptions, like you said every child not in public school saves the state money. Just make it a $5000 exemption for homeschooling or private school expenses (actually I don't know if we actually already have this or not which may be the case). Like I said I know 'poor' people who are in private schools (especially religious-based private schools which are often subsidized by a church), who are homeschooling, and they deserve the right to have some recoupment for their investment on behalf of their child. This encourages choice, without this many will not be able to afford these options, for example we just can't keep our daughter in her private preschool because of the expense. A tax exemption is a good compromise to encourage choice.
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Education is the toughest problem we have to face in this country. Others in this thread have pointed out the "you get what you pay for" theme already. This is all too true. The middle class in this country is disappearing and that is the fundamental root of most of our problems. It was the glue that held society together. Now we are facing the emergence or re-emergence of a two class system. A wealthy aristocracy that can afford to send their children to decent private schools where the teachers are highly motivated (read well paid) and the wage slave class that has to send their children to substandard schools that fail to educate them thus perpetuating a ready supply of low-wage earning people and more cannon fodder for the military whose sole purpose is to defend the rights of the wealthiest since the rights of the wage slaves cannot be protected by public defenders doing pro-bono work against highly paid law firms with huge staffs to handle their case loads. I find it repulsive that so many nowadays deal in black and white absolutes without having any real understanding of the terms they use. Leftist or liberal has become a slur and few want to be identified as having any liberal leanings. What does it say about our society's values when a garbage collector in New York city without even a high school diploma makes more money than a teacher in the same city with a Bachelors or Masters degree? What does it say about us when a neurosurgeon makes 20 times less than a semi-literate steroid hyped trash talking "role model" sports figure making 20 Million a year and yet complaining about having to show up for practice and getting busted for drugs but he's still a hero because he can score the touchdown or throw the ball through the hoop? I fear for the future of America but I've grown cynical because it appears there are two camps in this country. Those that want equal opportunity for all and a decent education for all children regardless of their economic background and the other camp that resents paying taxes, wants even more tax cuts and considers the military an organization that their children shouldn't have to serve in, that's for kids of poor families. Oliver Wendell Holmes (a Republican, believe it or not)said, "Taxes are the price we pay for living in a free society." Most of the affluent in this
country have just grown too damn selfish and self-centered and the people we elect to represent us sell us out in favor of large corporations that have neither our interests or the future of our country on their minds. In the end it's just "all about me, not you" and if anyone disagrees they'll be slapped down with a label of Liberal or Leftist and shunned. Goodbye America, it was a nice democracy while it lasted but it's dead and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.
Jaytee
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I agree to your no preference, that would be a good idea.
Also, I agree to public oversight, but through an state accreditation board. The local school board could be corrupt. Remember that with the power to cancel private sector charters, a corrupt schoolboard like my local one would force students back to their institution, thus increasing their schools bugdet.
I would agree that frund should go through vouchers to parents. I'm concerned with parents spending the cash on something else, so I don't want to give them raw cash, but I see your point that funds directly to schools could be rigged for imaginary students similar to the Jeb Bush/Imaginary Medicare Patient scam. Vouchers would also be transferable from one institution to another, allowing the parents to withdraw the student from the school mid-term and sending them to another public or private institution.
You still haven't addressed my point on exemptions, which is that they only help the rich. I need the system to be wealth-independent. I would also veto any parents mathing funds rule, for the same reason. Parental income cannot have any connection to availability of education. That in fact is my whole goal here. Right now, it's an open field for the rich. I want it to be an open field for everyone.
But I'm feeling good about this whole consensus process now. I'm still vetoing tax relief as the mechanism.
The poor need to have the same access as the rich, and the poor pay no taxes, a tax exemption is useless to us.
I basically agree to what you have, let me enumerate the final changes I'd make.
1) The public oversight is the state accreditation board, not the local school board. The local school board can have some input, like if they want to complain, there should be a process, but the local schoolboard in my experience is the most likely part to be corrupt, and so it can't have full power. State accreditation board would be more visible and accountable, statewide.
2) Funds would be in voucher form, and the amount of the voucher could be variable. It should cover the full cost of education, but I can see reducing it for higher income groups. There's no need for the state to pay $10,000 or $15,000 for a family already earning a million a year.
3) All schools would have a free right to compete, level playing field, and funds through voucher would be on a per enrolled student basis.
4) Previously stated standards would of course still apply.
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JT
I think that the solution we are coming up with IS a decent compromise.
I wanted to say this about taxes, but we'll discuss it later. People resent taxes because they fail to see the benefit. The largest tax you pay, you not me, since as the independently destitute I don't pay taxes, but the bulk of federal income tax goes in one way or another to defense.
America traditionally has no natural enemies. The cost of keeping Al Qaeda away does not approach a single percetage point of what we spend daily.
My tax proposal would be simple. We start labelling taxes honestly.
School Tax
War Tax
Healthcare Tax
Welfare Tax
VA Tax
Washington Tax
etc.
If each item were labelled honestly on your tax bill, then people would at least know what they were getting for the money. If an items seemed not worth the cost, then people could support politicians who either improved that service, or lowered that tax.
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