Babylon 5

POSTED BY: Ringwraith
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 28, 2026 03:42
VIEWED: 17712
PAGE 3 of 6

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 NEXT PAGE

DEKION

Tuesday, June 17, 2003 9:08 PM

I have to point out that you are obviously not very knowledgable about Babylon 5, as you have made several errors in your argument, no disrespect intended.
First, FOX had absolutely nothing to do with the decision to hire Bruce Boxleitner (Capt. Sheridan) and fire Michael O'Hare (Comm. Sinclair) as FOX did not make Babylon 5, and had nothing to do with Babylon 5. Babylon 5 was syndicated through the PTEN network (Kinda like Tribune is now), and some local FOX affiliates (as well as ABC, CBS, NBC and Independents) carried it in off hours times. Babylon 5 was made by Warner Brothers, and it did not air on WB because WB did not exist yet.
Secondly, JMS has stated several times that the Sheridan character was always in his plans, but he had to move those plans up because O'Hare wanted to return to theatre work (which he did). WB apparently had nothing to do with this decision, it was O'Hare on his own. JMS has stated that 95% of the story he wanted to tell was told...
SPOILERS
The Shadow War
The Earth Civil War
The Minbari Civil War
The Drakh subterfuge of Centauri Prime
The resolution to the Babylon 4 cycle (which was unchanged, just moved up by about a year)
The Psi Corps build up to the war
etc.

Some things had to be rearranged, some had to be changed, but his over all story remained intact. The only try hickup in that play was the early part of Season 5, as he felt there would be no season 5 he put several of his plot resolutions into season 4's last several episodes (Earth Civil War, Intersteller Alliance founding, etc.), leaving the early part of Season 5 with little to do. He had to expand the telepath plot ALOT to get through the first 7 episodes or so, and thus the problem. The original Season 4 finale was supposed to be Intersections In Real Time (perhaps the best psychological interogation scene I have ever seen on TV, and my wife the Psychiatrist agrees.)
And on your "cloud of debris" point. 1) That was the perfect ending to a show like Babylon 5, which had a cynical streak in it a mile wide. It was poetic irony at it's finest. 2) The debris (much smaller than the full station and no longer generating a gravity field through rotation) would fall into the atmosphere of Epsilon 3 (the planet B5 was orbiting) and burn up, thus no hazard to navigation.
So I choose to look at this like a scientist. In science it is impossible to truly prove anything (Black Swan anyone?). You set forth a hypothesis and try to disprove it. As you pointed out, you cannot prove your hypothesis, but I have just easily disproven it.
And lastly, I am more willing to believe JMS (winner of 2 HUGO awards, launcher and/or showrunner of several successful series {Babylon 5, Murder She Wrote, Walker Texas Ranger, Jeremiah}, etc) who created the show and knows what happened, and has had every post he has ever made on usenet cataloqued on www.jmsnews.com since 1990, over someone who has probably never written a single hour of television, and who did not even know who MADE the show he was complaining about.

"Everyone does not have a right to their opinion, they have a right to their INFORMED opinion."
Harlan Ellison

Your opinion, in that context, was obviously not informed. I respect your right to not like something (personally, I think Voyager and Enterprise are the worst TV shows I have ever seen, where Babylon 5, Farscape, The Prisoner, etc are the best), I respect you made that decision, but just don't try to justify your opinion with facts you do not know, or even make up. If you don't like it, great, more power to you. Just try to know at least a little of your facts next time, it will save me considerable typing.

PS your post was very reminiscent of Troll behavior (posting on a thread BECAUSE they are hostile to the threads topic), but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Tuesday, June 17, 2003 9:29 PM

Well said.

MAKEROFPATHS

Wednesday, June 18, 2003 4:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Well said.

Indeed . . . Now, coming on here and beating the dead horse . . .
I dare say the "B5 hater" saw only a few trees and missed the forest. From front to back over five years, JMS created an extraordinary body of work in B5, including some truly amazing scenes, episodes, characters, conspiracies (real and imagined, within the context of the show's drama), fearsome acts, mythic races, well, it goes on and on.

I offer that one good way of judging a work of art's effect is the degree to which one remembers the detail and emotion it creates. I doubt that I will ever forget most of what I saw and felt watching B5. Yes, I'll forget a detail or two, but I'll remember the awesome forest.

be seein' you
r

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS

Wednesday, June 18, 2003 7:02 AM

Ooh, I know I'm gonna get a whoopin' for this but...

I loved B5. I loved it from the pilot (and was really disappointed they replaced Stewart Copeland's score with Christopher Franke's when it re-aired. Like I'd say to George Lucas: if it ain't broke, don't fix it) and right around the middle of the series when all hell broke loose there was nothing else like it.

But... (here it comes) I was badly disappointed by the way the culmination of the major story arcs were crammed into the fourth season in a quick and unsatisfying conclusion. Yes, I know JMS thought they were getting cancelled and did the best he could. Not his fault and he rolled as best he could but the show was, to me, badly damaged and never fully recovered.

Now, I don't know what JMS did or did not intend from the beginning. I know he had to make some running changes, because a novel-for-television involves living people and forces beyond the creators control. He did great; it's an exceptional show that should go down in TV history. But... It's not all it coulda been.

History repeats the old conceits

CHRISTHECYNIC

Wednesday, June 18, 2003 12:32 PM

If a show was all it coulda been, well it would probably be the best show out there, ever. Even Firefly, which we all love, had quite a few continuity errors. Now that we know the correct order it’s undeniable, so it’s not all it could have been even in the episodes we have. That came from changing the order between script and (some later point, I’m not actually sure when they changed the correct order.) A show staying on for as long as B-5 did while trying to deal with people coming and going not to mention the threat of cancellation really has no chance of being all it could have been.

I’m happy with what I got, though I do wish the telepath war hadn’t been skipped between B-5 and Crusade (now there’s a show that completely failed to meet it’s potential.) And I’d like to know the stuff G’Kar did between the end of B-5 and Legend of the Rangers, while we’re at it what he did between then and his death, the conclusion of what started with legend of the rangers, and so forth. Just a lot of stuff we haven’t seen.

DEKION

Thursday, June 19, 2003 8:30 PM

I don't think there is anything wrong with what you said. The problems with early season 5 were definently there, but I agree that JMS cannot be blamed for them.
On Crusade (I don't remember who said it, sorry)
I think if TNT hadn't interfered then Crusade would have been great, and I still contend that the 13 eps of Crusade were far and away better than the first 13 of Babylon 5, even with said interference. The 5 "original" episodes (Racing the Night, Visitors from Down the Street, The Needs of Earth, Each Night I Dream of Home and The Memory of War) all had alot of merit, and showed a definate indicator of where the show should have been, but thanks to TNT the damned "black uniform" episodes happened, and the order was scrapped. I suggest those who can to read the three unproduced crusade scripts (Value Judgments by Fiona Avery which guest stars BESTER, ep 15 or so, To The Ends Of The Earth and The End of the Line both by JMS, the last 2 eps of season one). They were utterly fantastic, and you realize (just as in Babylon 5 and more than likely in Rangers) the show was not REALLY about what he said was about at all.
SPOILERS
In Crusade the story was more about Earth and their continued use of Shadow Technology (the ship that blasted the Cerberus), and how they started creating Shadow/Human hybrids. The show would have been so good, but TNT in their infinate idiocy screwed it. OOO, dont get me started on them.

Later

ETERNALDAMNED

Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:33 PM

Just a minor point...B5 was in fact cancelled after season 4, a fact that the shows creators who had been "guaranteed" a 5 yr run found out after filming had started on season 4. So they REALLY had no choice but to try to cram in some sort of ending with season 4. It was only after it was all done, that USA network picked it up with all rights. Only after the final episode of season 4 aired on broadcast tv was work begun on season 5. And one must also remember, if the entire series had been made by a network such as USA or HBO, Showtime etc...it would have most assuredly been different. The normal broadcast networks are so afraid of the censors that to this day, they still can not say fart on broadcast TV. More intense scenes often ended up being re-shot and toned down to quiet the morons in the offices. The same type of idiots who cancelled the original Star Trek after 6 episodes...need I say more?

DEKION

Saturday, August 2, 2003 2:41 PM

Just some minor corrections from someone who has read every post by JMS ( and interview because I am a very strange person) concerning B5. First, it was never promised or guaranteed 5 seasons, he planned for 5 seasons to tell a true arc story. He only received renewals one season at a time (and it was almost cancelled every time). The only season the ratings did not almost get it cancelled was season 5, when it was offered a season 6. jms refused, since he stated he set out to tell a 5 year story and that is what he did. Also, it was TNT, not USA, that picked up B5 for 2 TV movies (In the Beginning and Thirdspace). They filmed Thirdspace first (a homage to HP Lovecraft) and while they were filming In The Beginning the announcement was made that Season 5 would happen. Oh, and lastly, a network did not do Babylon 5, it was syndicated and distributed by Warner Brothers through the Prime Time Entertainment Network (PTEN), which is essentially like Tribune is now. PTEN went under at the end of season 4 (B5 was the only show of their to make it that long), and that is what really caused the "no season 5" problem. TNT hamstrung jms writing (see the butchery they did with crusade as an example), not the syndicators or WB. Overall, though, your statement is correct.

TALRIUS

Saturday, August 2, 2003 5:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dekion:
I suggest those who can to read the three unproduced crusade scripts (Value Judgments by Fiona Avery which guest stars BESTER, ep 15 or so, To The Ends Of The Earth and The End of the Line both by JMS, the last 2 eps of season one). They were utterly fantastic, and you realize (just as in Babylon 5 and more than likely in Rangers) the show was not REALLY about what he said was about at all.

Hey, can you point me in the direction of where I can find these scripts? Please.

DEKION

Saturday, August 2, 2003 11:16 PM

Good news and bad news. The scripts originally appeared on bookface.com (now defunct) and it was free to read them. Now that bookface is gone, and they were the only ones that paid the copyrights to display them, there is no other "legal" place to get them. The website www.b5tv.com has many fans (including myself) who have the original .doc files, and they used to be swapped regularly (which is illegal, a violation of copyright), but now that site will not allow it on their bboard any longer. I do have the files, on a different PC, and have hard copies (in folders to read when I am feeling blue).

The good news. email me when you get a chance at tcurran@mybluelight.com or adelrond@hotmail.com and I might be able to give you some possibilities.

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 NEXT PAGE