Why the silly 'verse change? **Minor SERENITY Spoilers**
POSTED BY: Mycenius
UPDATED: Sunday, November 27, 2005 23:55
VIEWED: 17107
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Originally posted by Ethawyn:
I could be wrong, but I have no memory of them saying there were more than 70 planets.
Hi Ethawyn, It's in the Firefly Series - specifically states 70 Planets plus numerous moons (or words to that effect) - IIRC there's a reference to the war, that when it ended the "70 planets were (re)united under the Alliance" by the core planets, etc, etc... (or maybe the reverse - the 70 planets were divided, etc, etc). There is also another reference in another episode, again IIRC, that says something vaguely like "the 70 planets and all their moons" or some such...
I think the number 70 is also mentioned in some 'official' documentation somewhere (the blurb on the series or something or maybe the official website or somewhere)...
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At least in the movie they say "dozens" and hundreds of moons.
Yep - and that is a subtle change from the series as in Firefly there are 70 Planets plus lots of Moons, and in Serenity there are 12 or so Planets and 100's of Moons - so there's actually even more inhabited worlds implied in the Movie vs. the TV Series...
Rightly or wrongly my point is it's a change that doesn't seem to have been necessary (has no effect on the plot, scene settings, or time in the movie) nor for any benefit to the story as a whole? Just a change for the sake of a change...
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One thing I should mention is the difference between internal inconsistency and consistency with reality. With a tv show, internal consistency is far more important than consistency with reality. For example if in one Star Trek episode Commander Riker uses a phaser at full power can vaporize 10 tons of rock, which is completely inconsistent with reality, but the inconsistency with reality would not matter if phasers in future episodes are also able to vaporize 10 tons of rock. There would only be a problem if in another episode, they used a phaser at full power against a person and it killed him without vaporizing him.
"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam
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Quote:
Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
One thing I should mention is the difference between internal inconsistency and consistency with reality.
Yep agreed totally!
That's actually my main point GEH, there's been an inconsistency between FF and Serenity, and a by-product of that inconsistency, IMHO, has created an inconsistency (or rather perhaps an increased inconsistency) with reality... In the big scheme of things it's minor and I'm probably being excessively pedantic, but, it seems it was a change that they made a point of making for no apparant benefit or reason... That's all.NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:If memory serves, the figure "70 Earths" was not mentioned in the series proper, but in the deleted scene from "Our Mrs. Reynolds." Because of continuity errors in other deleted scenes, I feel that deleted scenes should be viewed at best only as semi-canon. I suspect Joss feels the same; since it was never actually mentioned in a proper episode, he has no compunction about changing it to suit his needs (as another example of this, in the script for the Buffy pilot, it says that the Master is a 600 year old german. This was never mentioned in the actual episode and Joss had no problem contradicting that later since it was never officially stated).
It's in the Firefly Series - specifically states 70 Planets plus numerous moons (or words to that effect)
Even if you take the "70 Earths" bit as canon, look at it in context. Mal says: "There's more'n 70 Earths spinnin' and the meek have inherited not one of them." You cannot assume that Earths=planets. In the BDM, the narrator/teacher refers to both the planets and the moons. The word "Earth," especially in Mal's line, has a metaphoric meaning and cannot be assumed to mean "Earth-sized planet" when it could just as logically mean "terraformed planetoid capable of supporting human life" (you can kinda see why they just say "Earths").
Finally, I haven't yet got my hands on the RPG, but I believe it contains a map of the 'verse and a list of planets, which totals to around 30. Or so I've heard it mentioned. Anyone care to confirm it?
Quote:That's just the thing--a fair number of us are saying that there's been no change. If he'd done something other than what's up on the big screen, I'd be just as up in arms as you are now. But as others have said, before the BDM there was a running debate as to whether the 'verse was single or multiple system. I was still just lurking at the time, but I came firmly down on the "Single System" side, for canonical reasons but also because every single time he was asked over the course of the series and the movie, Mr. Whedon has said it is a single star system. The fact that the question kept popping up is probably why he very explicitly answered it in the first few lines of the movie. Like I said, no change.
Rightly or wrongly my point is it's a change that doesn't seem to have been necessary (has no effect on the plot, scene settings, or time in the movie) nor for any benefit to the story as a whole? Just a change for the sake of a change...
But I'm with you on missing the Alliance city-ships (purely for aesthetic reasons, I understand why they're not there).
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Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:
If memory serves, the figure "70 Earths" was not mentioned in the series proper...
Hi STL - it's actually "70 Worlds..." or "70 Planets..." IIRC, and it's specifically in a blurb about the war, not the one you have quoted from a 'general' scene - although that is probalby the second reference to 70 I could recall...
I don't have my DVD's they are out on loan converting more people to FF fans so I have no way to find the reference I am thinking of in the immediate future... But I am certain the reference is there in a full episode...
Of course I could be wrong...
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No, Mal specifically said "70 earths."
There is the matter of the matter of technology. Serenity has artificial gravity even when its life support is off so that type of technology is probably very widespread so it is very likely that they are able to settle on planets and moons much smaller or bigger than earth because of their gravity altering technology. They could also settle on planets either closer or farther away from the sun by modifying the atmosphere to keep in or block out sunlight.
"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam
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Unfortunately, I, too, have lent out my DVDs but I am absolutely certain that the "70 Earths" reference appears solely in the deleted scene. Guess we'll just have to wait and see, though it appears Giantevilhead is backing me up. Do you have the set with you, to check? Maybe I should just go look for episode transcripts.
Quote:I remember in "Serenity, Part I," when they're describing how the colonization of the border moons works, Zoe specifically mentions "gravity" as being one of the things that they altered to earth norm in the terraforming process--which, as you said, makes sense with their already existing artificial gravity system.
There is the matter of the matter of technology. Serenity has artificial gravity even when its life support is off so that type of technology is probably very widespread so it is very likely that they are able to settle on planets and moons much smaller or bigger than earth because of their gravity altering technology.
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You might have a point there, Mycenius. Like you, I also considered the possibility that they could serve as fighter carriers (they certainly had a fair number of fighters or gunships or whatever in the series).
I still feel that the Dortmunder-type cruiser design seems too akward to be a line of battle dreadnought/battleship, but I could totally buy them as command ship/carriers in a role like our modern day aircraft carriers.
Then again, they seem to operate on their own without support craft out on the Rim. This seems weird for a command ship/carrier, but does fit with their designation as "cruiser". Oh well, enough speculating with too little data for tonight.
Good thread, Mycenius.
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Quote:
In the Serenity start sequence it talks about the leaving of Earth that Was being possible because they found a new "Solar System" with 70+ planets and hundreds of moons that were habitable - which is obviously completely implausible (for several reasons) and,
And you're quoting it wrong.
From the shooting script in Serenity Visual Companion, we hear of the original colonized system having "dozens of planets and hunreds of moons"... though people have pointed that out, I thought it was worth mentioning that you can check right in that book.
And since I don't think anyone's brought it up yet: it's a good thing the deleted scenes aren't counted by Joss as canon, because they apparently contradict Serenity canon!
There's a little chart on page 12 of the Serenity Visual Companion that shows "The Worlds of The Alliance"... a number of planets are pictured, 40 of them with names (an additional three pictured objects are listed under "border moons", and Sihnon has what appears to be four pictured, unnamed moons). For there to be more than 43-47 "Earths" could be reconciled with the Visual Companion's film notes only if you say "they didn't mention all the planets/moons" (unlikely, I think), or (more likely), that "border moons" refers to more than the pictured three.
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even given Terraforming capability, would be impossible to inhabit due to the distances of the planets from the 'sun', etc...
There are likely several more suns in the inhabited 'verse, actually. That, and a heat/light source might not be impossible to install, though possibly it would be impractical in some ways.
You simply must look at page... I believe it's page 117 in the Visual Companion, which has a picture of the electronic map accessed by River on the ship's navigation computer. If only because it shows the 'verse, although you're free to draw your own conclusions from it, as the thing is bloody confusing (though I MUST insist that you realize that in the opening lines of the film, they are referring to the FIRST colonized system, not neccesarily the only one. Also, "system" may actually refer to several star systems orbiting a larger central star, especially if you look at the crazyass picture in the SVC).
The StarDestroyer.net forums have a discussion on that very picture. There's no one way of interpreting it, as it lends itself to a number of different readings, though my favorite comment was "That is one crazy region of space."
Digging up the link...
Ah, here it is!
via this thread on Godawful Fan Fiction:
[url] http://godawful.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20909&postdays=0&postorder=
asc&start=100]
is this link to SDN's discussion on it:
[url] http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=79962[/url]
Which has several people weighing in on it. the GAFF thread is worth looking at, too, if only because a professional scientist weighed in on the discussion (danAlywn).
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In Firefly originally the implication is that these 70 Worlds (that belong to the Alliance) are located in multiple Star Systems, a far more logical premise, and making a lot more sense when in several episodes it is indicated the Crew spend a month in the ship flying from one system to another (plus the references to 'systems' on at least a couple of occassions, and at least one reference to multiple planets in a system).
There's some sort of comment somebody made about large, "light-month" sized orbits, I think on GAFF. I unfortunately do not have the time to figur eout which it was, but I'm pretty sure it was one of danAlwyn's on GAFF.
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The core planets are those in the denser central part of that section of the (or a) galaxy, not the planets closest to the Sun.
Or, what's counted as the "center" of the Alliance's terriotory. ;)
-Runa27
Can't Stop The Signal
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Hey there.
various equally plausible theories about the system they inhabit have already been discussed so much, my head could just explode from being filled too much, if I though of it all at once... but there are a few things worth remembering: in bushwhacked the alliance captain mentions placing guards around the nursery when the colonist-gone-reaver escaped. So these aren’t purely military vessels.. So they wouldn’t be placed in combat situations if possible.
I’m not sure why you assume the voyage from ETW took a few years at most, but the predominant theory is that it was undertaken by generation-ships, that travel for decades, tens of decades... generations, right. My personal theory is stasis ships. You can pack in more humans, tighter, you don’t feed them or worry about political unrest. Such ships could take thousands of years, and the culture will still remain intact, as to the humans, they just took a nap and had arrived at their new Zion (as such, the thousands of years the trip took would not eat away any of the 500 year timeline gap between now and then. The timeline would be paused with the colonists.)
Remember the thing about travelling close to the speed of light is temporal dilation. The Terraforming ships (if fully automated with the most complex life forms being bacteria, protozoa and fungi on ice) could have left ETW at a much greater velocity (the greater inertia would do it less damage then it would a ship full of people) so by the time the populated ships caught up to the system the Terraforming ships landed at, thousands of years of automated Terraforming would have already have happened (remember, temporal dilation)
The lingo could have changed by then, so by system, they could mean planetary orbit- no reason why they couldn’t artificially shift orbits of planets to share the same orbits, say at 180 degrees from each other (stabilized with the gravity tech they clearly have) and using the gravity tech they could use gravitational lensing to increase or decrease the amount of light each planet gets, widening the habitable band.
about the Terraforming (which would have to have started long before the first colonists from ETW arrived/awoke)- in Our Mrs Reynolds the sensor array for the pirates (the bad ones, not our ones) was on a shattered sphere, when compared to serenity, the sphere must be quite small, so cant be a natural moon, but could be leftovers from the Terraforming. All you need to do is melt down our asteroid belts, and we have enough mass for dozens of planets (inc. Oort cloud for delicious fluidy goodness), so this 'lil moon' could be some cast off planetary slag that was hit by a missile during the war.
phew.. umm.. im gonna go do... something... uhh... yeah
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