God is an Iraqi
POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 29, 2025 20:41
VIEWED: 12402
PAGE 7 of 12
Signym,
Okay, I was afraid of this. This isn't what I'm saying. Let me try to explain:
1. America has a special right to life implied by the declaration of independence. This doesn't apply to anyone else, not to the rest of the world.
2. America is a country of many races, and anyone can join it, providing they abide by a set of rules.
3. It is this set of rules that sets Amerca apart. Ergo, for the purpose of this discussion America is really a set of rules.
4. That set of rules is sufficient, it is not perfect, but sufficient to grant the survival of America.
5. Other societies also fit this criterium, such as Japan. Japanese RTL however, is not for us to decide. It is for the Japanese. I don't know fi their founding documents grant them any such right.
6. Societies without a controlled set of rules preventing humanity as a disaster, cannot be autoprotected. Disasters are disasters.
7. Humans are a disaster becuase unless we can live on this planet without damaging it, we have no right to be here at all.
8. Sure societies like America are flawed in this regard, but they're a hell of a lot better than Nigeria. In a few decades at the current rate of destruction, Nigeria will be completely lifeless.
9. This is no racism here. Black people in America have more right to life than white nomads in Nigeria.
10. The solution here is Nigeria must first and foremost establish a set of rules that will not destroy the land on which it sits, and not grow its population out of the bounds that it can support with minimal environmental impact.
And so this logical thread goes. The "feed the poor" program you're vouching for is a recipe for disaster. I know that it's well intentioned, but the problem in these societies is not that they don't have enough to eat, it's that they are an immense destructive force
which is annihilating the Earth. If a society were stable and controlled, and suffered a famine, then I would say sure, feed them. The problem is most controlled societies are going to be European or east Asian, and if I continue citing examples, someone's bound ot
say racist. The Irish famine, for example, was a fluke, but not a society bound to wreak havoc. The Bushmen of the Kalihari aren't damaging to their enviroment. But most of the people of the earth are a disaster, and the right to life of the Earth definitely pre-empts the
right to life of humans. Right to Life granted to us by our declaration of independence is not a diving writ from God, whom I don't believe in, it is granted to us by our founding fathers as a reward for biding by an assembled set of rules called America.
That said, it still has many flaws.
But if someone can first and foremost solve the problems that make countries such as Nigeria a danger to themself and to others, Nigerian right to life can be addressed. But these issues definitely include a) environmental protection, and b) population control. If
these problems are solved I will support them in their quest, should they so choose, to support their own right to life.
But please, this has nothing to do with a "they're not human" argument. There's nothing unique about Americans or even particularly different, except that they follow a set of rules I called America, and if they don't adhere to those, they get kicked out.
One last example, and again, the non-racist disclaimer, this has nothing to do with their being black. Hatians in Haiti abide by a set of rules that in recent decades has transformed their nation into a desert. The arial photos are stunning, or how the rainforest stops
dead at the Hatian Border. This liveless sand and slag called Haiti is the effect of Hatians living their under the rules of Haiti, clearly a hazard to the Earth, whose survival, in anyone's philosophy, should have the right to survive over us, or future generations will not
be possible. To me, animals are generally already abiding by such a set of rules naturally imposed, and so also should have some right to life.
Now take those same individual Hatians and brind the
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I have a question then.
Isn't free choice one of the most basic things to being Human?
If so how can the 'right to life' supersede the 'right to choose'?
If the 'right to choose' is greater than the 'right to life', then surely euthanasia et al is not intrinsically against the 'right to life'?
Thank you, CITZ finally, finally. This idea, not showing up till this far down the thread really stuns me to my core.
I do applaud everyone for remaining civil. I should let it sink under the waves, but part of life for me is standing up to have my three-headedness counted.
1) If Jesus were re-born in Iraq now, yup there would be a bomb. Haliburton would arrange for burial, and Rove/Cheney would couver it up. Unless they decided to take the participants to Abu Garib for fun.
2) Besides starving them, Clinton bombed Iraq every week he was in office.
The Loophole to bear arms keeps our government in line? Nope, Can't agree with that. Rupert Murdock and cronies helping the regime to distract the public by pointing to the trees and saying 'Look! Flu epidemic!" while convincing the masses that the only life worth living is one that includes 2 SUV, no more than 6 months old keeps the populace deaf to the attrocities the government commits on every front, every day. Gun ownership by private citizens is bad on every level, and just like the Federal government arming other countries we are sure to decide are the enemy soon, the logical contusion in all of this is that if you're sportin' a gun, the police can shoot you right away instead of waiting. Not lighting the flamethrower, I'm not I'm not.
Your RTL sounds more to me like a RT be forced to continue breathing no matter what. Besides agreeing with what the CITZ says above, I believe RTD is the other side of the RTL coin.
Our prison system. Wait a minute, I'm going to tag Chris for this one...
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DT- So basically what you are looking to do is make USA laws/ ethics conistent with RTL. Okay, I got you that far. I think there is a unadressed situation in your reply, but I will have to read it carefully and get back later. Alas, real life calls.
---------------------------------
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Quote:Me? All I know is that the prison system makes somebody a lot of money, therefore is worthwhile, I guess.
Originally posted by liminalosity:
Our prison system. Wait a minute, I'm going to tag Chris for this one...
Plus: it teaches one how to progress from being simple and harmless, to a more hardened and dangerously effective criminal (at no extra cost!).
Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Much of it depends on the humanity of the particular staff- some are saints, and some are sinners. The law says they have to take you, but the reality is they'll take you if they're so inclined, which thankfully, most are, but there's NO guarantee. BTW, those laws are old, look for new ones to alter them in subtle ways that will get corporations off the hook for letting the uninsured and poor die from lack of proper attention (No medical records= limited treatment?). Medical insurance is like car insurance now. Deny the first claim, 8 or 9% go away defeated-maybe even die- pure profit! Most really sick and poor people haven't the knowledge or stamina to stand up to the beaurocratic crap they'd have to deal with to remain healthy, much less alive. These corporate types push through laws we will never hear of until they're used to increase profits
by and large, money gives you the RTL in this country.
Now am I too cynical?
Chrisisall, Conservative Liberal Conspiracy Theorist
You staked yourself out of this thread for being cynical?
Crying now, and not in a good way.
I agree with everything you said about our medical system. There is also the factor of compassion burnout, short staffing and outrageous hours pushing against the best intentions of healthcare staff as well.
...our prison system. Only creates more sadistic criminals, with more finely honed skills and a greater disregard for life tortured into them.
I think anyone who believes our prison system works on any level is far far more cynical that Chris (and I'm not even going near the idea of how many innocent Reavers end up there, or the Patriot Act). Beyond that, IMO, the whole idea of a life for a life is wrong, just wrong. Whether you're talking about prison, or about me killing you because you're trying to kill me. I believe killing another human for transgression of the social compact is wrong. Killing heals nothing.
Blaming the Chinese peasantry for benighted social policy and the greed of the wealthy? Dreamy, you know people -from- China and you're taking that stance? I'm surprised you're pointing at the underclass to explain the evils of a system that's always run it's own people over with tanks, even before there were tanks, even before there were Communists.
Alright, then. Not a single flame has left my lips. Nor any outright mention of the one thing you don't want in here that keeps creeping in anyway.
Chris, no need to respond, but please please de-stake yourself.
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Okay, having stated my extreme position, I'm backing off now.
I basically agree with what liminalosity posted, but I think that this leads to some dangerous conclusions.
1. If we had no right to bear arms, the govt. would kill us all. Don't trust me, look at the history books. This happened in germany, it happened in russia. Sure there are places it hasn't happened, but a lot more i didn;'t mention where it has, and just because it hasn't happened somewhere yet, doesn't mean it won't. If govt. or authjority doesn't fear a backlash, it will not hesitate to act.
2. But I think it's silly to still be using guns. This is outdated tech. and everyone can move to non lethal weapons, asap. This would make me happier.
3. I'm with everyone on the help the hopeless, but not to the end of creating humans. Maybe to the end of creating stable societies that neither create and export excess humans nor destroy the environment.
4. Right to be forced to breathe forever? What religious dribble is this? If you believe death is some beautiful release that's infinitely better than pain, and not that it is the abyss of non-existance that is infinitely worse, then we will never be in the same page.
Insurance is kinda like socialism, except run by corrupt corporations, but it is the same kind of system, I hope I get no argument here. If an insurance agency were a govt. agency, it would BE socialism.
So, from my perspect, insurance is bad. World with no insurance, definitely better. I would deal with the extreme cases by having the govt. pick up the tab, possibly. Which would be kind of like social safety net, but way out there.
I can never afford insurance, and always get turned down for SSI, so it's never an issue to me, but it isn't sour grapes. I don't think y'all with insurance are really better off, and the whole system is made much worse for it. Prices are jacked up about 1000% of what they are in the corresponding Korean system, which delivers statistically better care.
Picture if everything were reduced 90% here.
Surgery $200
Doctor's visit $20
Walk in clinic $8
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Lim,
You're stuff is a little thick to comprehend.
Prison system bad. Sure, better than endless cycle of retribution. But prison is meant to be preventative, not vengeance. I believe a much better system can be developed. It's believers are gullible, not cynical. Cynicism is the opposite of gullibility.
The problem with cynics is that they're right 90% of the time.
Quote:
Blaming the Chinese peasantry for benighted social policy and the greed of the wealthy? Dreamy, you know people -from- China and you're taking that stance? I'm surprised you're pointing at the underclass to explain the evils of a system that's always run it's own people over with tanks, even before there were tanks, even before there were Communists.
Huh? This isn't what I meant. I don't like to pull the "you misread me" card, but this isn't what I meant.
Ultimately, sure, the peasantry are to blame for everything, because they are the agents of action. Random Chinese peasants destroyed the environment, specifically, I think I said. This is the effect of a poorly ordered society.
There's nothing anti-chinese here.
1. The peasantry of everywhere are a sample of humans that act according to the social rules set forth locally.
2. There is no difference between the peasantry of China, Nigeria and the United States. It is only the overlying social order that changes, so ultimately only that social order which is to blame.
3. Any attack I make on communist china is not a defense of imperial china. I don't believe "human rights abuses" are a chinese characteristic, even if they've never had another govt. that didn't have such abuses natiowide, because:
4. They have. Hong Kong, Taiwan and Macao have had other forms of govt. in which the citizens faired better. These societies unquestionably had their flaews, particularly environmentally speaking, but they did not have these human rights violations, so:
5. These are the result of the govtl. systems.
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Quote:One question, DT, How can non-existance be worse than anything? I mean, if you don't exist, you don't know you don't exist, right? I mean, non-existance necessarily forces one to have a rather non-judgemental attitude on one's state of being, nes pas?
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
If you believe death is some beautiful release that's infinitely better than pain, and not that it is the abyss of non-existance that is infinitely worse, then we will never be in the same page.
Chrisisall
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Chris,
Because non-existances don't have unproblematic objective existences. You can't be objective as a non-existant since the state of non-existance is subjective, so I have to qualify it.
Hope that works.
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
1. If we had no right to bear arms, the govt. would kill us all. Don't trust me, look at the history books. This happened in germany, it happened in russia. Sure there are places it hasn't happened, but a lot more i didn;'t mention where it has, and just because it hasn't happened somewhere yet, doesn't mean it won't. If govt. or authjority doesn't fear a backlash, it will not hesitate to act.
4. Right to be forced to breathe forever? What religious dribble is this? If you believe death is some beautiful release that's infinitely better than pain, and not that it is the abyss of non-existance that is infinitely worse, then we will never be in the same page.
Insurance is kinda like socialism, except run by corrupt corporations, but it is the same kind of system, I hope I get no argument here. If an insurance agency were a govt. agency, it would BE socialism.
Picture if everything were reduced 90% here.
Surgery $200
Doctor's visit $20
Walk in clinic $8
The government already has the ability, and the will, to kill us all. Just hasn't felt like picking up the tab yet. It's much easier to keep us drugged with purchasing power and anti-depressants, but that song's soon to run out.
Right to a morphine od, yup, the other side of right to life. But I don't believe in the black hole of non-existance, I believe in reincarnation, so -that- kind of religious crap we'll never be on the same page about. I believe death is for you what you believe it is (that life is fractal and recursive on every level) so everybody gets to choose their own after death party. Tell you what, I invite you to mine, and I hope you do show up because it would so suck daily to believe that this is the one and only kahoona, and nothing outside this tiny little box of rain. Even if I did believe this is all there is, I don't think that I would want to hold onto a life that has moved into a realm of constant agony with no retreat.
I picture that 90% reduction in medical costs daily, and I'm also wishing for a reduction in our levels of the consumption of goods and resources at the same time.
Thanks to viral marketing...SERENITY: reopening soon in a theater near you.
Shiny Trees! Yavanna made Shiny Trees!
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