God is an Iraqi
POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 29, 2025 20:41
VIEWED: 12402
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I think Jon Stewart said something like that. Anyway, I thought it might stir a few things up. Here are some random thoughts:
1. Okay it's true, the cult of YHWH was born in Iraq. What is the second coming of Christ is born in Iraq, and all the wise men come, and then Bush drops a bomb on them?
2. Is it really a RTL position to drop bombs on civillian populations? Clinton, the right-to-death candidate did starve them to death, but he wasn't claiming to be right to life.
3. Right to life, while I'm at it, has a lot of logical extentions. Everyone knows I'm a taoist, not a christian, but right to life is a very fitting philosophy for a taoist. I don't really see any reason why the extensions of right to life might differ for a christian.
4. Minimum death does follow a RTL idea, but war on terror can only claim to if it is also minimum death. At the moment Al Qaeda is a pain in the ass, and quite possibly needs to be stopped, but it doesn't by itself merit a quarter million human casualties. So if there WERE an Iraq/Al Qaeda link, it would be a terrible argument. Saddam killing more people would be a better one. I think at the moment this war is nowhere near such a position.
5. RTL, further ideas. I think most of the republican platform points are basically consistant, and anti-death. Pro-life is actually not opposed so much by Anti-life, right-to-die. It's more like right-to-kill, or more positively spun, right-to-freedom, which comes down to freedom-to-kill. The reason I'm wandering down this dangerous road, and it is a random wander, is that it strikes me that lots of ancient laws banning rampantly promiscuous homosexuality and unfettered drug use, are anti-libertarian, but they are also closer to the RTL position, because such activities may endanger lives.
6. So there are a few exceptions, things which are ideologically inconsistant, that I wanted to tackle. Simply analyzing everything from a RTL perspective.
7. I hope that everyone will at least credit the right with, if not currently, but historically, being less warlike. This isn't a serious problem, I think most often the right is, if at war, trying to be at least somewhat minimum death, and not on a social militarism campaign. But the Iraq war does seem to be social militarism in action. The main purpose, as stated by Bush ad nauseum, is not to prevent Saddam from killing people, but to bring freedom, democracy, women's rights yadada yadada, ie. it is social militarism. Clearly this is in some way a violation of RTL.
8. Second Amendment vs. gun control. I generally take gun control as the old pro-govt. nazi argument, and unsuspecting lefties are actually advocating handing a tremendous amount of power of life or death to the govt. But I can see specific instances where that isn't the case. A ban on assault weapons, if and only if it were universal, ie. no other law enforcement or federal forces on US soil were allowed to carry them, then it could be construed as consistent with RTL.
9. Pro-Death penalty. This strikes me as the biggest flat out inconsistancy. It's a blatant violation of RTL. Putting aside the whole issue of the FACT that innocent people are put to death, and the whole concept of redemption which christians are supposed to believe in; It's a handover of power of life or death to the state. This is very clearly not an RTL policy, and no one who thinks should be able to support both.
10. Conservation. Everything has to eat, and so animal rights can clearly be said to be in conflict with the rights of animals that eat them, even if those animals are us. But still and all, destruction of species is a pretty clear anti-RTL position. I would think that christians, who believe, whether through evolution or intelligent design, that all species of life were put here by God; and who also believe that the destructive hand of man is the work of man manipulated by the devil (I believe it indicated this in the bible many times) would have a problem with this. How can they hold to these beliefs and yet be seemingly unconcerned when so
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Quote:Animals that kill other animals should be put to death.
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
10. Conservation. Everything has to eat, and so animal rights can clearly be said to be in conflict with the rights of animals that eat them Questions? Comments?
Seriously, RTL (to me) has always meant, 'We will defend to the death of your mother your right to be born once that sperm takes a likin' to a egg, but after that, you on your own, little buddy.'
Family Values my ass. Every person (with VERY few exceptions) will grow up to either:
a) pay taxes
b) fight in wars
or
c) enter the correctional-industrial establishment
All serve their purpose; all must be born. A signifigant dollar value is attached to every fetus.
All, however, must NOT be educated, fed, or treated as if they were wanted or loved, unless they lucked out.
And killing monsters and the odd innocent here and there abroad increases the $ value on every potential domestic GNP contributor by insuring the status quo.
Social-militarism is just good business.
Am I being too cynical?
Chrisisall
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Chris,
Prehaps this is a first, but I so disagree with you here. I mean, this can be considered to absurd extremes, maybe terri schiavo was just a paying customer. But seriously, for some of us, many of us, RTL is actually about something. I'm not quite sure what pro-choice is about, but as political footballs go, it's not very catchy. But I wasn't looking to pick on fight on RTL, right or wrong. I was looking for more, where does the logical extension of RTL end. There are few better founding political ideas than I can think of. There is no more basic right than right to life. I think after that, maybe we can does with liberty and pursuit of happiness.
I think that we on the right have been fighting for education, btw, just not for public education, which is pretty much an automaton factory. I think that's what spike says in Bargaining Part I:
Quote:
That's all schools are, you know. Just factories, spewing out mindless little automatons.
I don't think we give up on kids. I think that...
You know I better stop before this becomes a partisan bitchfest. I was looking for thoughts on RTL, and I guess you gave me some. I get that 1/2 of people don't agree with RTL.
Abortion itself isn't a hot button issue for me, I don't intend to have one. But it's a good philosophical position and an excellent one for someone like me who doesn't like "Kill, Kill, Kill," as a platform. Clearly there are certain people who would vote for that platform, I know quite a few. But most of them are pretty young, and young people really don't vote or become active in politics much at all. They mostly just stand up on campus and protest, usually about the low quality of food or need for longer bar hours.
But the issue isn't really abortion. It's right to life. Where does it end, or what can it be applied to. I was delighted with the terri schiavo case, because it showed some thought applied to the subject. While I've seen this surface before within RTL, I'd never seen it before in the mainstream media. I think Bush handled it badly, but as a case it did expose that there are many possible facets to RTL as a concept, and there are many cases in which the right to life of a human is protected by law.
For instance, if I go in to a hospital with apendicitis and no money or insurance, they have to treat me anyway, my right to life in this instance is protected by law, in a way which is at odds with the profit motive you set forth.
So, to avoid partisan bickering, because that's not what I set out to start, I'm going to suggest a ban on any roe v. wade talk. I intended this thread specifically to collect people's thoughts on right to life outside of the context of roe v. wade. So I say again:
Where does it end, or what can it be applied to.
I don't think that you mean to say that it's your position that RTL ends at birth, I think you mean to say that is the GOPs position, and perhaps presently it is, but I don't think that's the conservative voters ideological position.
Re: social militarism. It can't be good business because it's too expensive to engage in. There may be some profiteering going on, but overall, it is too costly to a society. I think the decision makers at the top, Wolfowitz, Libby, Cheney, Perle - are all thinking of it as a trade off. It's not just a cover for rampant theft, at least not from the neocons' perspective. Maybe from a halliburton of chevron perspective it is.
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Quote:Oh, they CAN make you wait, though. AND wait. You can sit in an emergency room and die (it's HAPPENED, a lot more than you'd think) waiting because you're lookin' poor or drunk or have no insurance. Much of it depends on the humanity of the particular staff- some are saints, and some are sinners. The law says they have to take you, but the reality is they'll take you if they're so inclined, which thankfully, most are, but there's NO guarantee. BTW, those laws are old, look for new ones to alter them in subtle ways that will get corporations off the hook for letting the uninsured and poor die from lack of proper attention (No medical records= limited treatment?). Medical insurance is like car insurance now. Deny the first claim, 8 or 9% go away defeated-maybe even die- pure profit! Most really sick and poor people haven't the knowledge or stamina to stand up to the beaurocratic crap they'd have to deal with to remain healthy, much less alive. These corporate types push through laws we will never hear of until they're used to increase profits and concentrate power.
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
For instance, if I go in to a hospital with apendicitis and no money or insurance, they have to treat me anyway, my right to life in this instance is protected by law, in a way which is at odds with the profit motive you set forth.
There are those sweet souls out there who try, and succeed, in helping less fortunate people, but by and large, money gives you the RTL in this country.
True conservatives (IMO) would like to 'conserve' human life, as well as the Earth itself. To them RTL means something. Phoney ones preach 'family values' while cutting programs to feed poor kids in school, wage needless war, carve up protected land for corporate sale and developement (read: destruction), and laugh about it at lavish dinner parties.
Now am I too cynical?
Chrisisall, Conservative Liberal Conspiracy Theorist
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Well...
RTL, taken to it's absolute logical extreme would be complete disarment and putting us all in boxes so we can't hurt ourselves...
as the song says...
Calm,
Fitter, Healthier and more Productive
A pig
In a cage
On antibiotics.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
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As far as I understand the conservative view on this topic, RTL goes something like this: "Once conceived, you are a person. As a person, you have the right to be born. Once you are born you have the right to live as long as you can. If you choose to waive this right, lethal force can and will be used against you."
Examples of waiving the right to life would be serial murder, genocide, etc. Basically any offense deemed capital by the state.
For conservatives, life is an absolute right, but one that can be given up. If you do something that is considered heinous beyond the point of plausible rehabilitation, you have chosen and welcomed the potential outcome of death. A baby in the womb of course can't actively do anything atrocious enough to be considered waiving the right, which is why conservatives are anti-abortion - unborn babies are rightly considered to be purely innocent, and therefore their deaths are considered more tragic than any other.
Murderers on death row, however, have made choices to get themselves there. Whoever throws the switch, conservatives believe that the criminal is the one who brought the execution about.
Anyway, that's my understanding of the conservative view. To their eyes, their stance on right to life is in no way self-contradictory.
I consider myself to be centrist/libertarian, so most of this makes pretty good sense to me. My one and only holdup on the subject of capital punishment is the fact that innocents are sometimes accidentally executed. As for those who are truly guilty, what goes around comes around.
And as far as the abortion issue goes, for me it's just one simple question. Do you believe a fetus is a human life? If the answer is yes, you're pro-life. If the answer is no, you're pro-choice.
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One quick thing on the whole corporal punishment thing.
Just something to think about.
If it's a question of what goes around comes around, when will the state/executioners be put to death for all they've killed?
I have a further question on the right to bear arms issue. It's taking the whole argument to it's logical extreme again, but surely people have a right to build and maintain nuclear weapons, or at least 'rogue' states such as Iran have that right?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
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Left to my own devices I'm probably pro life. The problem I have with the US situation is two fold.
1) I'm not at all happy that a government would use a moral possition as the basis of access to healthcare. Say a small state elects a majority of Jehovah's Witnesses to government, under this precedent they could deny me a blood transfusion in an accident because it conflicts with their moral viewpoint. I find that worrying.
2) Some on the religious right seem to be using this as a moralising tool. "You be a sinner and have sex out of wedlock and we'll MAKE you have that baby little missy!" It comes across like punishment for sin rather than a true prolife position. Here in Texas we see a lot of dumb fishes and other "look at me I'm holier than thou" bumper stickers on cars so you stop noticing them. However the other day I was stuck behind a car that said simply "consider adoption -- times look desperate but we can help" It had been put out by a local Catholic group and is I feel the only reasonable prolife position not "see what sin did reap" but "there's an alternative, we can help you."
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Fletch2:
I'm pro-choice, simply because personally at an early stage of pregnancy a baby isn’t a baby, and to ban abortion not only opens up questions like your own (Re. the transfusion thing) but, well just doesn't stop abortion.
It'll just make it happen down the backstreets with some dodgy guy with a vacuum cleaner and a blood soaked screwdriver.
Maybe this is what the 'moral' extremists want; having a young woman’s life ruined/cut short, a suitable punishment for her sin, perhaps?
I don't hold to that.
That's not to say I support abortion per-se. I just find a ban would be a much, much worse thing than legalised abortion.
"consider adoption -- times look desperate but we can help"
Never a truer word, err, printed, on a bumper.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
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Yeah, citizen, I understand your position on abortion. Really it just comes down to what you believe a fetus is. Personally, I err on the side of it being a life. Does it have a soul? Do any of us really have souls? I don't really know.
I'd like to think we do, otherwise there's not much point to any of this. And even on the assumption that we do, I don't know exactly when we get it. Does the soul develop early or is it strictly third trimester? Does it plunk into your body the moment your last pinky toe leaves the birth canal? Haven't the foggiest.
That's why I personally disagree with abortion. I don't know where the line is, so I choose to draw it at conception. After conception, barring a natural miscarriage, if you leave it alone it will become a person at some indeterminate point. That's enough for me to make it a bad thing to end it.
Of course, I'm reasonable enough to understand that my belief is not everybody's belief. I don't have proof that I'm right, nobody has proof that I'm wrong, and vice versa. So even though I have the feeling, yeah, there's a potential genocide going on here, I also understand the laws can't be overturned on gut feeling alone. It's a personal choice thing. So up until now I thought of myself as pro-life, but maybe I'm really "pro-choice, but choose life, dammit!"
The one thing that always bothered me about the pro-choice movement, though, was the catch phrase "Keep your laws off my body." This is really an ineffective battle cry, since true pro-lifers have absolutely no interest in *your* body. They're interested in the *baby's* body. True pro-lifers aren't trying to punish sin, they're trying to prevent it. This pro-choice argument falls on deaf ears, mainly because pro-lifers say "What's your point? I don't want anything to do with *you*, just don't kill the person *inside* you, thanks kindly."
And that's the thing that frustrates me most about this subject. When people debate it it always turns ugly (thankfully this has not happened yet here, but even so it won't be long), and the true reason for that is that neither side is talking about the same thing the other is. Neither side lives in the same world that the other does, in a very real psychological sense.
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