New kind of democracy in Venezuela: Michael Albert

POSTED BY: Howard
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 30, 2025 16:22
VIEWED: 4263
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FLETCH2

Tuesday, November 8, 2005 1:15 AM

The really interesting thing will be if China doesnt break apart. There is nothing inherent in Capitalism that says that it HAS to be partnered with a democratic political system. The message we chose to take from the fall of the Soviet Union was that the people wanted freedom -- I'm not sure that's true I think they wanted blue jeans and consumer goods.

In the Delaration of Independence it says this.

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

So there is a possibility that the Chinese system may reform into something quite different from a Western style representative democracy.

As for Chavez --- he's full of himself, I can't see any chance of this thing working even in the short term.

HOWARD

Tuesday, November 8, 2005 1:36 AM

Name three countries where this has been
tried?

I am curious to see your interpretation
of this.

I am curious to see how laughable your
examples are and how you misassociate
conflicting examples.

I also find it interesting how the mere
suggestion of real democracy offends you.

SEVENPERCENT

Tuesday, November 8, 2005 1:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Howard:
I am curious to see how laughable your
examples are and how you misassociate
conflicting examples.

Howard, have you ever managed to participate in any debate where you weren't blatantly rude, insensitive, or didn't use an ad hominem attack?

It's no wonder you have the time to find all these articles and facts; if you talk to people in the non-cyber world like you do on this board, you probably spend a lot of time at home in the basement with no friends and no dates.

Holy crap, dude, try and be civil for like, one thread. Try "I disagree" or "the facts don't match that assertion" instead of "you're too ignorant to know so I'll tell you." It's not that hard.

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, November 8, 2005 3:06 AM

Fletch,

An interesting point.

I, as I said, know quite a few Chinese, maybe other people here do as well. What I find is their tolerance for the foibles of the Chinese communist govt. is very limited, and as affluence grows, that tolerance may be pressured to break, and the communist may fall, but you are absoultely right that there is no reason that the next reform or revolution will lead to a western style democracy. It's probably a cultural bias that makes us think our system is more or even most ultimately equitable, or that equality is in some way desireable. But an entirely new system may sping forth, or the old system may come back.

I was reading somewhere about Japan and the troubles of it's prime minister and the long term depression, and it made the interesting observation as a side note that Hirohito, as emporer, had reign over almost the entirety of Japan's economic growth, from an isolated and not particularly worldly or technological island republic into the most sophisticates and the most per capita wealthy nation on earth. Curiously his death in 1989 heralded the start of a great depression which is still going on.

I tend to think that Democracy is in a way the greates manipulative govt. in that in a system like ours it is possible to create the illusion of choice and the illusion of self rule without actually offering either.

It's also possible that the advent of technology will make entirely new govtl. forms possible. Consider the concept of direct democracy instead of representational democracy. In theory, on the internet, barring all sercurity problems, that the people could simply go online and vote on every issue. A referendum, or to quote Mao, a revolution every day.

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, November 8, 2005 3:13 AM

Howard is intentionally trollish I suspect. I don't know him from adam, but I tend to ignore it. I have examined the possibility that Howard actually lives in an institution, so I have to endeavor not to be too rude to him, because, quite frankly, you never know what someone's problems are. To Howard I say this:

Howard,

How to win friends and influence people, by Dale Carnegie.

Great book, look into it. Get back to me. After you've read it.

I'm serious about this. I also just recommend it generally. I find when I'm losing a lot of agruments like I have lately, it's time to go and return, reread it again.

That and my other master.

The Tao Te Ching by Lao Tse.

This pretty much covers my inspirations, unless you want to check our Carl Jung or Nietzsche.

Actually maybe I'll start a new thread on this topic.

FLETCH2

Tuesday, November 8, 2005 3:47 AM

There are definately cultural biases in our ways of working. We did some cultural studies classes at work a few years ago. The crux of it is that commercial relationships in Northern European cultures are determined entirely by contract while those in southern europe and the mid east are governed more by personal relationships. If you read things like the US constitution, Magna Carta etc the thing they have in common is that they are worded in contractual terms, in Europe we talk of the social contract --- an agreement between government and governed. All of it is effectively contracts.

If you look at government systems in the Mid East they are all done through personal contacts and favours. Now it could be that this system works better than we chose to accept or it could be a disaster. The point is that the government interaction with the governed in any society is a business relationship following the standard form used for any business relationship.

My understanding of native Chinese business systems is that status of the two parties involved in a deal greatly effects the expectations on both sides, Question is how this would refelect "scaled up" to a bigger level? I have heard others say that communism never really effected rural China and that in effect the top levels of the old feudal hierachy were just sliced off and replaced by the party with the peasants doing the same as they had for generations. Maybe the system in China will go that way, kind of a class system with multiple levels reporting up and orders coming down....

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, November 8, 2005 4:16 AM

The ruling relationship in China historically has been the Guanji. (gwaan zhee) It's similar but not identical to the original relationship os feudalism in Europe (I got into a big argument when I posted this before, because people mistook it for late feudal europe, which was more like indentured servitude, but I got my degree in ancient europe, I do know (at least a little) what I'm talking about) but to clear things up to be very sure:

The original feudal relationship in Europe was a contractual one, more or less, and was there when the romans first came. The owner of a piece of property, be it land or something else, would loan out it's use for a percentage of the take. In times before the application of money, this was typically in yield. A vassal was simply the person who was using, say, a piece of land, and whatever he did with that piece of land, he would give, typically about 15% to the lord of that land, ie its owner. So if he grew potatoes on that land, he would give three in twenty potatoes to the lord. In time it became a system where a whole village would rest on a piece of land, and the lord of the village would be both lord in that he lent land to the villains to harvest, and that he had borrowed the land upon which the village stood from another lord, say a count or a duke. As time progressed and this system was overrun by the more monetary labor system of the Romans, the incorporation of the two led to some rather unfortunate developments, whereby the nonyeilding peasant, rather than being expelled, could fall into a debt of service, and over time long term financial contractual relationships and feudalism became almost synonymous with de facto slavery.

In the Guanji, the relatioship is built on a complex system of favors. If you wish to advance you would ask a favor from a person in the guanji, usually to get yourself some training, an apprenticeship, some sort of education or employment. It would be easy to advance in your profession this way, but as you do so, for every favor you request, you own one in return. This meant that people in a position to provide these services became very powerful, because they could call in favors from a wide variety of people. If you remember the recent collapse of Suharto in Indonesia, one of the major reasons this caused such a quake was that he was the head of the global Guanji. Because of his nature of calling in favors in a way which trumped the extant or what we would consider in the west the legitimate social orders, capitalist and government, Suharto was considered to be incredibly corrupt.

I guess what these both show is that old systems and new ones don't really mix without bad consequences, but it's always possibly that people will find news ways into intertwine them.

re: communism in western provinces, I hear that too, particularly the benefits, what little there are, have failed to reach, the pain in the ass factor is pretty widespread.

FLETCH2

Tuesday, November 8, 2005 8:19 AM

That explains the "status" thing I heard. Does this imply that Chinese deals tends to be inherently Asymetric? Doesn't this mean that in effect you promise to pay back the "favour" done for you at some future time without really knowing what you may be asked or the scale of it? Wonder how that would reflect as a government?

The deal with S European/Mid East "personal" business relationships is that you create commercial "friendships" and then execute commercial "favours" which are equivalent to N European contractual obligations but perhaps not as clearly defined. I don't think you end up owing favours in that situation though obviously the closer you build the relationship by doing extra "favours" the greater customer loyalty you get.

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, November 8, 2005 2:10 PM

I'm not an expert on china, but as I said, I know some people who are, not just chinese but two americans who've studied it extensively. That's really just a vague disclaimer that all of this is "near as I understand it."

1. Yes, deals tend to be assymetric in that manner. There is often a favor aspect to a deal. This doesn't mean that the guanji plays in to every deal that's made in China, but it is a factor.

2. Yes. This is a big disaster re: the hidden favor. The guanji is so culturally ingrained that if a Chinese firm make a deal with you they may expect that favor later. There have been a few notable cases where when that favor has been called in, and the American company has not complies, because by our code, if I contract with you to supply me with trucks, that does not obligate me to use your friend's company for fuel, etc. And so the Chinese may react in a seemingly random or what we would perceive as corrupt way by cancelling the first deal for trucks because we didn't buy fuel from the friend's fuel company. Some real examples are actually much worse. I assume the scale of the favor is probably in line with the initial favor, or such a system wouldn't work. It can't be I lent you my pencil so now you will lend me your wife.

3. From what I understand, it has profound influences on ascension through the party hierarchy. It doesn't really mean that a two party system presents a problem though. I don't know what howard dean did to get dem. party chair, or what kerry did for the nomination, but I don't think these were really free and fair elections without meddling. Dean sharp shift away from his former more anti-war views shows that he may have cut a deal. Generally I think democratic party deals involve bets with gold fiddles, but alas, I'm beginning to expect that GOP deals may also these days. But I think this is still a long way from saying that the Guanji IS the govt. If that were so, Suwarto would rule everything. I think it's more like the mob. Which reminds me. I had to go and look it up when the left started calling Alito "Scalito" but it's not so. Alito is just a regular italian name. For those who like this kind of conspiracy theory, Scalia is Sicilian

HOWARD

Tuesday, November 8, 2005 5:48 PM

Why do you people not know how to
read discourse?

Why do you people always get personal?

Why do you presume that the method or
tone of my response to you has any bearing
on how I communicate in conversation or in
writing with other people?

In fact I have had some perfectly nice
exchanges even on this site.

Give me shit and I'll give you that tone
back. Give me an intelligent response that
is something other than snide ridicule of
other peoples work and I will give you a
pleasant time.

Why have you lot entered into a discussion
about CHINA? What has China got to do with
the article I posted?

You are such a bloody waste of time the bloody
lot of you.

Its been not nice knowing you.

I am out of here!!

Contrary to you lot I DO have a life!

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