Post Serenity: Is the Fireflyverse even remotely pro-government anymore?*warning: spoilers*
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Thursday, November 24, 2005 06:58
VIEWED: 10014
PAGE 7 of 11
Yeah, what you said. I completely agree with you there, Chrisisall.
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While Serenity ahs been called a Libretarian Western in Space... it's hardly Joss' view of the world.
Sure it is. You don't spend 8 years creating over 100 hours of programming with a consistant message you don't believe in.
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Citizen said to Finn
You seem to be suggesting that the Alliance is a Socialist totalitarian government. This doesn't fit the facts.
Sorry Citizen, gotta side with Finn here. He's right. A Socialist state doesn't guarantee rights, it guarantees services. Rights are freedoms, and personal freedoms are the enemy of a socialist state because they create chaotic acts of randomness. Some of those may be crimes, others may be progress, which is why socialist states don't thrive, at best they remain fairly static. Clearly the alliance gets ahead by the same means as the soviet union, thinking ahead an creating research labs to devise progress and hand it over to government control. In a free society, River would be the product of a lone looney or a biotech corporation. Even if there are corporations in this world, they work for the govt. under contract, so it's at least as socialist as Bush.
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I got also got the same message you did Chrisisall, among the other messages Joss put in Firefly and Serenity.
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Chrisisall,
Thanks for another fascinating thread.
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Mal does what needs to get done, which takes him out of contempory politics as we know it, left or right.
Chrisisall, first member of the 'Get It Done' party
I was working for the reform party for a while because that was their motto pretty much, but they couldn't get it done. I agree, Mal is close to where Joss is, political limbo land. No, not Limbaugh land.
Ah rootbeer. How I've missed you.
Anyway, yeah, alas lately neither of the two major parties have been the get it done party. I'm hoping the GOP cna be again if it can rid itself of the it-thing Bush monkey and his neo-socialist followers. But many don't share that view. Well, someday I'll try to convince 'em.
But anyway, sorry for posting too much, just all these posts I missed and I gotta say sometin about them.
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I don’t know what motivations Joss had in choosing the US and China as the basis of the future interplanetary government.
I do!
He wanted to swear like a son of a bitch and get away with it on primetime!
Also, you have to admit, sino-america looked pretty cool in bladerunner.
I think sociopolitically, it was a reference to bladerunner. He knew we would recognize the sino-american theme, and that would at least subconsciously trigger a connection to a the truly twisted morality of that film, which firefly and the alliance do somewhat echo.
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Citizen.
I know you didn't get a chance to read my posts, becuase I'm writing them all at once, so forgive this reitteration if you already go the point, but I have to make it loud and clear:
FINN IS RIGHT.
About Nazis.
Not about interrogation techniques :)
But yes, about Nazis he is absolutely correct. Even if the Nazis were not nominally socialists, which at the very least anyone would have to admit because that's what it stands for, national socialist. But even if they weren't, their policies are very clear.
1. They hated private enterprise and set up govt. take over plans.
2. They instituted large social welfare and labor programs (only available to the master race, well other races had labor programs, but you didn't exactly volunteer)
3. They adopted a doctrine of social militarism.
I will admit that even though I despise social militarism (using military means to institute social change,) that the Nazi version is at best a very twisted version of that. But their federal takeover of industry was so extreme it allowed the govt. to sit on the board and hold a controling majority of major corporations. This is extreme socialism of the sort that of all American presidents only Bill Clinton has suggested we do it here.
Anyway, I think you should concede the point, and then, having accepted the implication that socialism is evil, distance yourself from it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chrisisall:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Maybe you’re a closet conservative?
LOL, I'll plead guilty to some small degree....
Can you be a conservative conspiracy theorist?
Fence-hoppin' Chrisisall
Chris,
there are some truly wonderful right-wing conspiracy sites. Absolutely you can be.
Finn,
Kudos, truly. I'm probably far to abrasive to win an admission like this out of someone ;)
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Quote:
http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html
The test is flawed.
I came out Conservative Libertarian, which I don't disagree with, but that wasn't the flaw.
The flaw was that if I changed my vote on "no national ID card" to yes from no, ie. from oppose the ID to support the ID, I became right-wing looney fringe. National ID card is a left-wing looney fringe idea, and supporting it should bump me left not right. Just because Bush supports something doesn't make it right-wing. National ID card is also supported by Tony Blair, who is a left wing looney. The reason is Tony Blair is a neo-socialist just like Cheney, and they belong to the same groups.
But overall it was better than a lot that I've seen. The other issue is there are a lot of issues that focus on economy here.
I can see that technically a quiz like this could be weighted to produce any result you want. Like if you wanted everyone to come out a lefty you could say:
You support
a> intelligent design
b> evolution
or if you wanted right-wingers
You support
a> higher taxes
b> lower taxes
I talk too much. Damn. Need to get a handle on that. Sorry guys. If it's any consolation I may have said some interesting things.
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Citizen you did catch my post about the democratic party being founded in the early 1820s by Andrew Jackson on a platform of exterminating the Indians, right? Well they did manage to kill 12 million of them. The thing is, genocide itself isn't strictly speaking normally a left wing policy as it is in these cases. But it is something which can happen much more readily in a top down social structure.
If I were to summarize right vs. left I would say right-wing society is bottom up and left wing society is top down. This would make Bush left wing. But honestly, Bush on that test. Hell. Now I want to try that.
Okay I plugged in everything Bush said. Bush is a "Centrist/Statist"
Statist, btw, is the word the CIA uses to describe Communist governments which are not actually members of the communist party, but have communist policies.
So, I take it back, maybe Bush isn't a liberal, he's just to the left of me, but in the greater scheme he's a centrist, but he is a commie.
Oh wait, no, there's the state ID question, which I said was left(and of course it's big govt.), and the test scores it right/big govt. So Bush should come out as a pip left of center, but still, he's not in left looney land on this 2d grid.
Funny how I posted that "we need a 2d grid" earlier, and suggested big govt be down. But I hadn't seen that test yet. :)
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Okay, to add to the funny, I did John Kerry. He came out only two pips to the left of Bush, counting ID card the way the do (with no mods by me) but he was also 2 pips more commie.
The test is well callibrated if your a liberal though. Dennis Kuccinich was only 2 pips from the left wing looney corner.
But for conservatives it's less on target. Pat Buchanan came out as Libertarian/Conservative.
Some dancing around I found the problem. According to the test, these are the most conservative positions:
Government should censor speech
There should be a draft.
There should be laws regarding sex
Laws prohibiting drugs should stay
There should be a National ID card
What? This is conservative? No way.
1st ammendment is a conservative idea. If you recall pre-bush, the pro-censorship spokesperson was Tipper Gore, the pro-cnesorship candidate was Al Gore and the biggest pro-censorship govts. have been the Soviet Union and Communist China.
The draft has always been a left wing platform issue as well. Look again, all the proponents are democrats, and have been. In the debates, Bush took the vow that the moderator asked for against the draft, Kerry would not. Democrats just proposed the draft, and again, soviets had it and chinese have it.
Laws regarding sex? this might be prostitution or gay marriage, so sure, that's probably right wing.
Laws prohibiting drugs is definitely a right wing thing.
But again, national ID card is not.
So their liberal identifiers are decent, their conservative ones are only about 40%
So take heart Finn, you're more conservative than the test says ;)
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