Firefly in the Timeslot of death

POSTED BY: Swatter
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 16:45
VIEWED: 15654
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ZICSOFT

Monday, June 24, 2002 3:44 PM

Nana Visitor was on Dark Angel? I must have stopped watching before she showed up. If I'd known, I might have stuck around. Then again, I sort of associate her with the sputtering, gruesome finale to DS9.

INARASNEWTOY

Monday, June 24, 2002 4:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Nana Visitor was on Dark Angel? I must have stopped watching before she showed up. If I'd known, I might have stuck around. Then again, I sort of associate her with the sputtering, gruesome finale to DS9.

First of all :

SMITE!

There is nothing sputtering about Deep Space Nine a show i consider the baseline to judge ALL sci-fi shows against.

Now then....

Nana came on board late in the first season, although her character get hinted at about the midpoint i think.

And just as she had this magnificent powerplay in the first season finale, she is frelling killed off in the 2nd season premiere. It stunk HEAVELY of being reworked at the last minute and then lo and behold Trekweb prints a interview with her and she reveals that the show's producers wanted to really go after the kiddies.

Even though she had been promised that she would be a full time cast memeber, she would now only be a reocuring guest star along with John Savedge (Lydeker). Since she would have to move her family she could not afford to do that as only a guest star. The response? She gets fired along with Savedge. And the creation of Max : Mutant Slayer is compleate.

The sad thing is many DS9 alums were involved with the show and they COULD have done better if FOX hadn't interfierd.

INT

One evil at a time, that's the best i can do - Farscape

ZICSOFT

Monday, June 24, 2002 7:20 PM

I liked DS9 for a couple of seasons. A little more thoughtful than the other Star Trek series. But for the last couple of seasons, most of the stories were just excuses to blow up lots of spaceships. Coincidentally, that started about the time Independence Day came out.

INARASNEWTOY

Monday, June 24, 2002 7:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
I liked DS9 for a couple of seasons. A little more thoughtful than the other Star Trek series. But for the last couple of seasons, most of the stories were just excuses to blow up lots of spaceships. Coincidentally, that started about the time Independence Day came out.

Oh Dear!

I compleatly disagree here. There is no possible way you can say that DS9 was just an excuse to blow up ships. Yes, some of those bigger Dominon war did have sweeping star battles but it never, EVER let you forget that their were supposed to be real peaple on those ships.

It was just so very powerful when Sisko had the MIA/KIA reports displayed in a manner very similar to the Vietman War Memorial.

Go and watch episodes like The Siege of AR-47 and Sacrifice of Angels and then come back here and we will discuss this again!

DS9 RULES!

INT

One evil at a time, that's the best i can do - Farscape

ZICSOFT

Monday, June 24, 2002 9:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by InarasNewToy:

Oh Dear!

I compleatly disagree here. There is no possible way you can say that DS9 was just an excuse to blow up ships. Yes, some of those bigger Dominon war did have sweeping star battles but it never, EVER let you forget that their were supposed to be real peaple on those ships.

It was just so very powerful when Sisko had the MIA/KIA reports displayed in a manner very similar to the Vietman War Memorial.

Go and watch episodes like The Siege of AR-47 and Sacrifice of Angels and then come back here and we will discuss this again!

DS9 RULES!

So you like to watch things go boom. Not all of us do. I liked DS9 when it was "Casblanca in Space" and they had stories about stem bolts and weird aliens who didn't understand what time was. Besides, when they started using Action to carry the stories, the stories themselves got to be pretty lame. "How can I save the day? Should I sulk? Should I peel potatoes? I know! I'll go to a desert planet and dig up an artifact!"

J

Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:29 AM

INT - I'm in complete agreement with you on DS9. Even as you were bringing them up, I was thinking specifically about "The Siege of AR-47" and the roster of the dead. Zicsoft just doesn't want to admit that anything that happens to have an exploding spaceship in it can also be great.

I can't remember the ep titles, but the one where Sisko ended up burying his head in his hands due to the fact that he felt he'd had no choice but to get his hands dirty - something about screwing the Romulans or playing allies off against each other or something - all the issues with Section 9 or whatever it was called... A lot of pure Trekkies hate this because it's fairly anti-Roddenberry, but I loved it. The show was good almost from the very beginning (and the premiere retroactively seemed better than it did at the time) but it did nothing but increase in quality, complexity, seriousness, moral ambiguity, and high drama. And when I get that AND exploding spaceships... well, I'm not going to complain at all. (Of course there are exceptions - DS9 wasted many an ep in sheer goofiness, but I'm speaking of an overall flow.) The only thing that weakened the end, imo, is that Ezri was a poor replacement for Jadzia and, if Jadzia had to be written out, she could have been written out much more effectively. The early eps had their excellences, but there wasn't as much tying them together - not as much large-scale and truly (fictionally) historical events. So, yeah, it was great in its way in the beginning, and great in another way at the end - but those two ways weren't contradictory... the concerns in the beginning were still being addressed in the end. Any good adventure story, even a thoughtful adventure story, can't stand still and be a bunch of disconnected pieces - it's got to build and come together and create sweeping arcs... so DS9 did.

But, admittedly, I'm as biased as you seem to be, Zicsoft, but in the opposite direction. For instance, as much as I enjoyed TNG, the only TNG ep I'd put on par with the key eps of the entire ending sweep of DS9 is "Yesterday's Enterprise" and it shares a similarly dark, gritty, "dirty heroic" aspect. So I guess it is a matter of taste - I just wouldn't knock the end of DS9 qualitatively... it's good - just not everyone's cuppa tea.

Um. *gets off soapbox*

ZICSOFT

Tuesday, June 25, 2002 1:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by J:
INT - I'm in complete agreement with you on DS9. Even as you were bringing them up, I was thinking specifically about "The Siege of AR-47" and the roster of the dead. Zicsoft just doesn't want to admit that anything that happens to have an exploding spaceship in it can also be great.

Yeah, basically.

Anyway, this is Star Trek damnit. Trying to turn it into an ID4 ripoff negates 90% of the basic premise.

Quote:

I can't remember the ep titles, but the one where Sisko ended up burying his head in his hands due to the fact that he felt he'd had no choice but to get his hands dirty - something about screwing the Romulans or playing allies off against each other or something -

Yeah, I liked that episode too.

Select to view spoiler:

Basically, he started out trying to con the Romulans into thinking the Dominion had plans to attack them. He ends up being party to the murder of a Romulan Senator, with cleverly planted evidence framing the Dominion for the crime. So the Romulans join the war on the Federation side

A nasty thing to do, but anything for God and country, right? Anyway, it was a good story -- sustained without a single space battle!

INARASNEWTOY

Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by J:

I can't remember the ep titles, but the one where Sisko ended up burying his head in his hands due to the fact that he felt he'd had no choice but to get his hands dirty - something about screwing the Romulans or playing allies off against each other or something - all the issues with Section 9 or whatever it was called...

In The Pale Moonlight is the episode you are thinking of. Only it wasn't Section 31 it was Garek who set up the dirty deed!

And yeah, i love that episode sooooo much!

DS9 gives me the warm gooeys!

INT

One evil at a time, that's the best i can do - Farscape

INARASNEWTOY

Wednesday, June 26, 2002 1:31 AM

Oh....and don't make me defend Ezri/Nicole DeBoer! It could get.....UGLY!

INT

One evil at a time, that's the best i can do - Farscape

J

Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:27 AM

Yeah - I mean those as separate things - the Section 31(?) stuff being an additional sub-arc that was full of moral complexities of a meaner, rougher Federation. Thanks for the title.

As far as Ezri/Nicole - Jadzia/Terry was so much a favorite of mine that I couldn't have been happy with any replacement. So I wouldn't argue about her, just because I know I'm extremely biased.

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