So...are you going to download it?

POSTED BY: HanoverFist
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 17:00
VIEWED: 38663
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R1Z

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 8:44 PM

Quote:
Can't support your opinion without trying to come across as a condescending asshole?

Actually, I don't have to TRY, I can do it in my sleep. Calling me names is not going to change the fact that what you advocate is wrong.

Quote:
Downloading the movie due to a lack in patience isn't morally wrong, it's life. People aren't perfect, we break down.

Implicit in your statement is an admission that bootlegging intellectual property is WRONG. No one says, "Buying brussels sprouts isn't morally wrong, People are human, we break down." You know it's wrong, you implicitly concede you're wrong. What you're doing here is seeking peer group approval and justification for doing WRONG. Sorry, you ain't gonna get it from me.

Quote:
As far as I'm concerned, the government can shove off.

This not the statement of someone who feels that the government's position is indefensible. It's not even a well-reasoned rebuttal, it's just defiance.

Quote:
we need our fix just like every other addict on this planet.

No, you don't even "need" it, you just "want" it. There are no documented symptoms of Firefly withdrawal, except anecdotally in your rationalizations. By saying this, you trivialize the lives of people who have real, medically documented addictions. Further, no one makes the case that a documented heroin addiction is just cause for taking another's property without consent.

Nothing I can say/type is going to change your mind, you clearly are gonna do what you're gonna do, much like any two-year old defying his parents. Your posts are just sticking your tongue out for a little ego boost.

Rebut this if you can: Joss and Universal OWN Serenity. Nowhere on the Serenity site, nor on the Universal board is there a button labelled, "Download Serenity for free." If they wanted you to have it for free, there would be.

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

KELLAINA

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 8:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by R1Z:
Quote:
Shelling out 10x the amount of a regular theater-goer entitles me to some kind of prize.

And you get to decide what the prize is.

And you get to take the prize against the expressed wishes of the people who own that prize.

Aren't you "special!"

And you get to go to the "special hell" for ripping off Joss.

Is this really worth telling someone that they are going to go to hell for it (even the special one)?

I still don't see how it's ripping off anyone if no money is being lost. Yes, I see how it's illegal and wrong, but not 'ripping off' someone.

If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. -"Angel"

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SEP7IMUS

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 8:53 PM

It seems to me that there are two approaches to justifying downloading the film, and it seems to me that both of them lead you into, at least, morally questionable ground.

First of all, I'm assuming that this DLing is being done through some sort of peer-to-peer system (Kazaa, Limewire, BitTorrent, etc.). If you download it from somewhere else (like someone has a webpage with it up) that might be different.

So, assuming you're considering P2Ping it:

OPTION 1: You download it and share it with other people via P2P (inevitable with BitTorrent, optional with Limewire, etc.).
-PROBLEM 1: If you share the movie with others, YOU might not be taking money from Joss et al. (if one accepts the "I've seen the movie a lot and will defintiely buy the DVD" argument), but you can't guarantee that that is the case for those with whom you share it. So, you're still screwing Joss et al. out of profits that they might have gotten from people seeing the movie in theaters or buying the DVD.

OPTION 2: You download it and DON'T share it withother people via P2P.
-PROBLEM 2: This is generally frowned upon in the P2P community. If there is a code of ethics among P2Pers (and there sort of is), it's based on shared access to information/property and the idea that sharing is a good thing. If you don't share what you've downloaded, you're "leeching." This is also morally bad. (If you don't subscribe to the idea that leeching is morally wrong, then it hardly seems fair that you exploit the moral stance that others have taken by sharing stuff...)

Finally, if you get it some other way (like from a friend online who P2Ped it or something), you're probably still implciated in the same P2P economy.

So, so far as I can tell, there's not a morally justifiable way to be downloading the movie.

R1Z

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 8:59 PM

Quote:
Is this really worth telling someone that they are going to go to hell for it (even the special one)?

I still don't see how it's ripping off anyone if no money is being lost. Yes, I see how it's illegal and wrong, but not 'ripping off' someone.

Per Shepherd Book, the "Special Hell" is reserved for child molesters, people who talk at the theatre, and folk who take sexual advantage of wives they didn't actually marry.

You concede it's "illegal and wrong", either of which is reason enough to NOT do something for a moral person. In my canon of sins, theft of intellectual property is about halfway between child molestation and talking at the theatre, thus placing the offender squarely in the special hell. Your canon may differ.

Maybe it's just the fact that I live in Nashville, where we have a special sensitivity to the ripping off of someone's hard work. You can't heave a brick in this town without hitting a performer or songwriter who's been bootlegged. And yes, it is ripping someone off. It's depriving them of control over what they've done.

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

HANOVERFIST

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by R1Z:
Quote:
Originally posted by fwivot:
No matter what people might think, your actions are not hurting anyone financially.

Sooooo--

THEFT is only wrong if it hurts someone financially? I guess if it's insured, it's ok for me to steal your car, because the insurance company will pay for it, and you won't be hurt financially?

How about if I burn the family photo album with the only images of departed loved ones? It has no economic value, so if I deprive you of it, you're not hurt financially.

If you don't know you have money in the bank, is it ok for me to steal it? You wouldn't be hurt financially.

And lets touch on the whole "No matter what people might think" bit. Seems to me that "morals" "customs" & "laws" are actually the aggregate form of what the majority of people think. MURDER is only wrong because the majority of people on the planet agree that it's wrong. How exactly, did you get your exemption from the obligations imposed by "what people think?"

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

Wow...okay. I guess you might not have understood the 'harm principle' as it has been brought up. Not just financial harm, but harm period. I wonder how there is any harm done (financial or otherwise) by downloading a movie that you have already paid for in several different ways. Is it wrong for me to download a copy of a song that I already own on CD?

And this nonsense about morality and justice being extensions of majority rule are ridiculous at best. Several hundred years ago the consensus was that it was okay to burn witches. Does that make the Salem Witch trials moral and just? Of course not! Saying that "right and wrong=what the majority thinks" is moral relativism at its most dangerous...mob rule. Didn't you watch 'Safe'?

INSANITYLATER

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:05 PM

Considering that Humans have lived on this planet for maybe a bit over 40000 years in its what.. 3 billion year life? Coupled with the fact that no one will care about this in 1000 years, I'm inclined to think it's rather pointless to argue over this. But what do I know.

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JASONZZZ

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:25 PM

Nope, doesn't make you any sort of criminal at all... You simply exercised your fair use right and right to make an archival copy of your purchased DVD - out of order.

Quote:
Originally posted by UnregisteredCompanion:
I downloaded "Team America, World Police."

Then when the movie came out, I bought it (it was only fair).

Does that make me a criminal? Technically yes. But did I do harm? Nope.

~~~~~
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R1Z

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:29 PM

Quote:
Wow...okay. I guess you might not have understood the 'harm principle' as it has been brought up. Not just financial harm, but harm period. I wonder how there is any harm done (financial or otherwise) by downloading a movie that you have already paid for in several different ways.

I suppose the best way to determine "harm" is to ask the victim, "Have you been harmed by this action?" (Unless you feel you're equipped to play God, here.) Has a sexually active person been harmed by a rape? It's just one more genital penetration, after all. A week later, there's not even any physical evidence. The difference is CONSENT. I believe the owners of intellectual property have made their positions clear. By depriving them of the right to consent to the copying and distribution of their intellectual property, they feel they have been harmed, and are entitled to compensation for that harm.

Quote:
Is it wrong for me to download a copy of a song that I already own on CD?

No, it's not. You bought a license to REPEATEDLY listen to the content of the CD when you purchased the CD. You did not purchase a license to copy and distribute the content, nor even to broadcast it over the airwaves, or play it for public amusement. Radio stations and jukeboxes pay royalties.

However, you don't already own Serenity. The ticket you bought was a limited license to view the film ONCE. You can't use the same ticket to get back in a week later. You certainly can't use the license you bought by buying a ticket to copy the film and view it repeatedly elsewhere, nor can you disseminate copies of it.

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

JASONZZZ

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:34 PM

Well, that's all fine and dandy if you like your morality legislated and brought to you by big named corps. Me? Every d/l comes with a potential customer who will actually like it enough to go out there and get it after they've tried it... It's like a coupon. It's a way for the crowd to rate whether the product is good - outside of getting fooled by these false/phony marketers. Hell, it's even a good way for real marketers and real execs to feel good about a good day's work on getting real accurate data on which product is the really good product - and which sucked. It's also a mighty good way to reward good artists and tell the bad ones to improve or get a real job.

These guys are going to take away all of your rights to time shift and make archival copies if you don't hold on to your own rights. You have a right as a consumer too, not all of it is held by the producers.

Quote:
Originally posted by weichi:
As near as I can 'suss this argument out, you'all are such BDFans that you deserve your download cuz your been paying for the movie and your goin to buy the DVD just as sure as your standin here.

Well, this type of thinking damages my calm - we are looking at a new world that might not have room for BDMs if the folks that make em can't see a way for some clear profit.

I know, this argument is a tad upside down - after all our BDH are thieves too, so lets just volunteer up. They are thieves to survive, you'all are thieves for pure selfishness, risking, however marginally, BDMs of any kind in the future.

I dont doubt the sincerity of the thieves that are posting. I dont doubt their honesty about buying the movie. I appreciate their candor, you know, not much, but I appreciate it.

These download sites must feed egos or make money somewhere, and helping their volume helps them exist for all those "bad thieves" as opposed to you principled ones, folks might-would've GONE to our BDM let alone bought the DVD if you'all hadn't helped them with a plan of the bank.

But its a rich bank, and it ain't any of our money, so nobody raise a fuss.

Recall the rush on the bank scene in "Its a Wonderful Life" where George Bailey tries to save the Building and Loan, and with it, his town, with $2000 of his honeymoon money? Who would you rather be?

Tom -"I got 242 dollars here, and 242 dollars isn't going to break anybody"

or Mrs. Davis "I'll take $17.50"

I always wanted to be a Mrs. Davis sort, you know, were all in this together and such, and that was before Mal explained the advantages of dresses and air circulation.

Anyway, ramblin on here, I hope I've made my point, such as it is. This may be another "kneecap" area of vagueness, but I expect Book would make room in the special level of hell for you folk.

See how I'm not punching him, I think I've grown!

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TENTHCREWMEMBER

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:38 PM

I'll be honest, I read the first 8 or 9 posts and then scrolled to the bottom, so I apologize if this has already been said, but here goes:

Around these parts (U.S.) we have "Cheap" theatres where movies go for second runs. The studios still get the money, because these theatres operate on the premise of making money off the snack bar. I will go see it again and again and again, with friends and family, at the $2 a seat Dollar Saver Theatre.

This will tide me over until DVD release, that AND my copy of Firefly. :D

If you live in a country (or an area of the U.S.) without a "Cheapie", I feel your pain and say, download it, but don't copy it.

Just my $2 worth! ;)

TCM

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