The Torture Question
POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Sunday, October 30, 2005 21:30
VIEWED: 10585
PAGE 6 of 16
Quote:It would certainly infuriate me and one could argue that it might be cruel and unusual, but it wouldn’t necessarily constitute torture.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
So if you were a prisoner, and the interrogator masturbates on the picture of your 5 year old daughter while mouthing obscenities, that would infuriate and scare you, but it wouldn't be torture.
Hmmm. I can live with that.
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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Quote:Nice dodge Finn. Yes, like cultures who believe in painful inititations: clitorectomy, penis-splitting, scarification, starvation to the point of hallucination... that sort of thing. An honor in their culture, a torture in ours.
You mean sort of like a culture that thinks it is okay to rape someone to death, eat their flesh and sew the victims' skins into their clothing, and not necessarily in that order?
Quote:By the way, how do you feel about people raping or near-drowning or electrocuting your child in front of you? Is that torturing the parent?
CAN'T: So if you were a prisoner, and the interrogator masturbates on the picture of your 5 year old daughter while mouthing obscenities, that would infuriate and scare you, but it wouldn't be torture.
FINN: It would certainly infuriate me and one could argue that it might be cruel and unusual, but it wouldn’t necessarily constitute torture.
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Quote:I’d say it definitely is torturing the child, regardless of the impact it has on the parent.
Originally posted by SignyM:
By the way, how do you feel about people raping or near-drowning or electrocuting your child in front of you? Is that torturing the parent?
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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Ok, I think I'm beginning to see Finn's answers in a more clear light; tell me if I'm mistaken. Canttakesky, Signy, and I are arguing that torture exists in forms other physical (i.e., emotional and psychological); Finn is arguing that only extreme physical abuse is torture. Correct?
If that's not correct, Finn, where do you draw the line on what constitutes emotional or psychological torture? Or is there one?
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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.
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Seems to me the important context here is the administration's interest in finding ways around the torture ban; the ongoing search for ways of torturing detainees that Americans won't think of as torture. Seems to me we play right into their hands when we have these kinds of quibbling arguments.
The point is that Rummy wants these people tortured. The only problem Rummy has is that the more overt methods are forbidden. So, let's study their culture and find psychological weaknesses to exploit. I think the sticks and stones type arguments discount a whole array of humiliation that constitutes psychological torture. There's a whole array of abuse that whitebread America can't even comprehend. How many folks does the average American know who have gotten pissed and deficated on? People have very deep irrational reactions to that kind of thing. Now, what if the ones doing the pissing and deficating are members of an invading army? Profound humiliation has severe psychological consequences, particularly in terms of breaking a man's spirit or will. If you can make a person feel worthless enough, they will comply with anything. No bruises, no broken bones, no evidence of torture--perfect!
Most Americans have no idea of the real psychological affect that has on a person, and more importantly for Rummy & co. they don't want to know. Rummy is exploiting the average American's blinkered indifference to the suffering of others.
We have a peculiar relationship to humiliation in this culture. We don't respect it in any way. If we notice a person blushing, for instance, we tease them unmercifully. From the New Ager to the Warhawk, shame is to be denied absolutely. Anyone who admits to feeling ashamed is seen as weak, pathetic, or (the ultimate New Age sin) unhealthy.
We also have a long and respected history of humilating people as a way of innitiating them into our groups. Frat hazing, and military hazing. The key difference between such practices and some of the lighter methods of "softening up" prisoners at Abu Ghraib, is that the rushees and cadets who get hazed in this country do so willingly and have reason to believe that they will not be wantonly murdered during the process. Detainees have no say-so and no such assurances. For all they know, they are simply, slowly being destroyed. But the administration drops the "frat hazing" talking point into the discourse and we Americans, because of our peculiar culture, buy it.
Ultimately, there are two psychologies these torture practices are designed to work upon: the Islamist psychology and the American. The problem, which Rummy's crew has largely solved, is how to torture these people in such a way that Americans won't believe it's torture.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:As a parent, I would feel acute and severe pain and suffering. I'd say it's torture for the parent.
Originally posted by SignyM:
By the way, how do you feel about people raping or near-drowning or electrocuting your child in front of you? Is that torturing the parent?
Most authorities consider both physical harm and threat of physical harm to constitute torture. It does not have to be directed at the primary target.
In my example, masturbating on a child's picture is cruelly offensive, but I can live with the argument that it is not torture. Threatening to rape the child or poke his eyes out, however, could easily constitute torture, if the subject believes it can be done and feels acute suffering over the threats.
There are psychological tortures out there, such as sensory overload or deprivation. One can argue that those have a physical/neurological impact, and therefore meets the sticks-and-stones criterion.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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Quote:I’m sure there is one, but I’m equally sure that it is nearly impossible to generally quantify.
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
If that's not correct, Finn, where do you draw the line on what constitutes emotional or psychological torture? Or is there one?
I think it is utterly ridiculous and fanatical to define torture as “not liking your religion.” I think that many fanatical Moslems would indeed consider someone expressing disagreement with their religion a form of torture, much as the Nazis might have felt that the existence Jews was a form of torture for them. However, it is that very religious intolerance and hatred of other opinions exhibited by fanatical Moslems that we fighting against.
A somewhat trickier example is the one described by Signym above. I would like to believe that any parent who saw their child being tortured would feel enough terror and anguish such that it might constitute torture of the parent. But that is completely based on my assumption of what the parent feels, and frankly, I can’t even begin to assume what a person feels, who is so mired in religious/political fanaticism that they would saw the head off a living, screaming, innocent human being just to push a political or ideological agenda. So I can’t say that torturing a child would necessarily torture the parent; for all I know bin Laden would consider the act of redemption and would rejoice at their child being cleansed of their sins or sent to their just reward. So it is difficult to quantify.
However, even in that case, the torturing act, whether the act of physically torturing the child or attempting to induce the effects of torture on the parent, is still a physical act. The act of torture is still physically harming the child. So in general, I do think that torture should be defined as some extreme physical act, not so such much because the effect of torture cannot be indirectly induced, but because it is difficult to quantify it otherwise.
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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Good gravy folks, torturing anyone in front of you, if you are wholely in the torturer's power as well is torture! Criminy, all torture is psychological, some is merely achieved through physical violence, but it is how it works on the victim's mind that matters always. Without psychology there is no torture in the first place. Torture stops when your victim is unconscious.
Or if your victim isn't human. If the administration can dehumanize the victims of U.S. torture practices, we Americans will deny our victims' psychological relevance--thereby circumventing the whole debate.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Sorry, couldn't let a Duh comment hang in the air...
"What does it say about us as a nation that we have folks who not only support state-authorized torture, but also want to keep it secret."
Folks, clearly meaning some, even a minority.
The statement means:
What does it say about us as a nation if some people can have such a warped and anti-freedom view?
What does it say about us as a nation if some people:
...think the government is the devil incarnate?
...don't like NASCAR?
...believe the Biblical end times are near?
...can't bother to pick up their trash?
...have an unreasoning hatred for SUVs?
...won't eat meat?
...still smoke?
...vote Libertarian?
It means we got a lot of different kinds of people. That's it. Otherwise it doesn't say anything about us as a nation, except that we're free to express our differing opinions.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:FINN!!
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:So what are hot pokers like to them, then?
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
In a culture that finds sexual humiliation to be the lowest degredation of a person, some naked pictures are like hot pokers to them. Just not to us, so we don't see it.
lol That's THE funniest gorram thing, lol, you ever, lol, put up here!!!!
I almost CHOKED on my soda!!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHA....
Chrisisonthefloor
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