BDM Theory -- Needing some BC Feedback [spoilers]
POSTED BY: MajinBuu
UPDATED: Thursday, October 20, 2005 05:46
VIEWED: 8528
PAGE 2 of 4
Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:
majinbu, i love it - the quotes, the analysis ... It all makes sense. Good job!!Quote:
written by oddnesstoher:
This reminds me of something I didn't get until my 3rd 'Serenity' viewing: when The Operative tells Mal that innocent people are dying in the air and Mal replies: "You have no idea how true that is." It took until then for me to realize he was talking about the Reavers; that they were as much victims of Alliance meddling as River or the rest of Miranda's population. It gave me chills.
Sorry to break it to you, but this scene was before the crew even went to MIranda. They didn't have a clue what went on there yet. I liked the analysis until i realized this. Any ideas on what he's really talking about?
keep flyin'
EngineAngel
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest In Peace (and then come back again!!!)
Umm, hate to inform you, but the quoted dialogue occurs when The Operative faces off Mal on Mr. Universe's moon, just after he shoots Captain Tightpants in the back with the electro-stun gun. Y'know, right after the reavers tore the living snail-snot out of his fleet...
"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn
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OK. Sorry, I got this line mixed up with when the operative appears on the screens after they see Haven destroyed and says, "The longer you keep River Tam from me more people will die." You were right and because i realize that now, I totally love that analysis and think it is comepletly true. Thanks for setting me straight.
Keep flyin'
EngineAngel
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest In Peace (and then come back again!!!)
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Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:
OK. Sorry, I got this line mixed up with when the operative appears on the screens after they see Haven destroyed and says, "The longer you keep River Tam from me more people will die." You were right and because i realize that now, I totally love that analysis and think it is comepletly true. Thanks for setting me straight.
Keep flyin'
EngineAngel
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest In Peace (and then come back again!!!)
That's perfectly OK. Maybe we had both better see the movie one more time just to be sure.
Keep flyin', yourself!
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Quote:
Originally posted by queenofthenorth:
Something the Alliance needs to learn:
There is no such thing as a world without sin unless it is a world without people.
B]
some interesting thoughts in this thread. a world without sin is possible only if we all lie down and die. this sentiment is echoed in the Operative's words when he says that he will have no place in this new world - what he doesn't realize is neither does anyone else.
the theme of belief, the need to believe in something, is strung throughout the movie. it wasn't only Mal that needed to believe - the whole crew was searching for something to believe in and in a sense, each of the character's found thier religion by the end of the movie. River needed to believe that she had a purpose as a person - not just a weapon - and when she realizes this in Simon's unconditional love. Simon needed to believe in something besides River, he needed to believe that it was OK to want for himself. Inara needed to believe in Mal. Book realizes that there is religion beyond the Bible when he kills the people that killed him dispite it's non-Christianess.it goes on and on.i couldn't stop seeing it in the movie.
something else i realized was that Mal only found his belief when he went back to war. he's uncertain of himself throughout most of the movie. he questions his actions, the crew questions his actions. Zoe asks questions his decision to not save the guy at the beginning of the movie from the Reavers. she's not saying that it was right or wrong but she stresses her uneasiness with the situation. when Mal asks River, "u know u'r part in this, right?" River responds, "do u?" i think that sorta summed it all up for me. Mal doesn't really know what his purpose is and is not whole until he finds himself fighting in another war.
fight the PAX. it's the good fight. at the very least it's a fight, it's purspose, it's something to believe in.
"We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty."
-Mal
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It's curious. Joss' politics have strong influence in his work and yet elude the casual observer. Clearly in his background he has a lot of far left liberal education, and much of it comes through in the shows. But also he often sets up that liberal thought to poke fun at it or knock it down, does that make him a reactionary?
If you google him there are references to Joss working for the Democrats last election, but that hardly says much about his politics. I worked on a democrat campaign last election because I couldn't take Bush any more, it certainly doesn't make me a democrat.
The most solid political idea is libertarianism. Maybe even anrachism. It was very strong in buffy and in firefly. The theme of the end of season seven of buffy was very much "sometimes you have to fight for what you believe in" At the same time, we were invading Iraq.
The Pax, peace is bad, might be there. Is it pro-war, or is this a nod to Rupert Murdoch, what's going on?
I personally have some serious problems with our war, and I don't usually find myself disagreeing with Joss' implied politics, except when it's standard liberal fodder of proper social conduct, but that may just be characters, after all jayne has no such tendencies, niether really do most of the characters. But it might not represent support for our action in Iraq but support for revolution "we aim to misbehave."
It's really hard to tell. I think that these times politics are too powerful an influence on daily life to be ignored, and anything seemingly political is probably to some degree a commentary on our real world situation.
I agree that the message here is peace is complacency, which is bad, don't just lie there, do something. But I'm not sure beyond that. Maybe like Heinlein, he's not on a side, but just wants people to act.
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If he is indeed making a reference to Pax Romana or Pax Americana, then he is certainly against the war.
In both cases, the peace in the 'core' was maintained by constant battles and occupation outside. Perhaps this hasn't completely occurred yet in America... but we've only had 15 years since USSR fell to create our own version.
This is most blatant in Orwellian thought. Read 1984... there's a kind of 'Pax 1984' of the same sort.
It has nothing to do with literal peace. Good ole doublespeak.
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Joss' ideas about belief seem to work better on a personal level rather than for a society/nation as a whole.
Mal needs to believe in something because he's drifting, purposeless. If that continues, who knows what emotional dead end he'll wind up in? Similar arguments can be made for several of the other characters.
However, when a whole society starts to believe -- especially when that belief isn't grounded in empirical reality -- you get Pol Pot's Cambodia, Hitler's Germany, or any number of religion-dominated states. Those are not very good role models for social systems, as they don't seem to play well with others.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't about you, Jayne. It's about what they need.
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What about love?
That for me was the other main theme that tied the movie together. The operative points out that it was Simon's love for his sister that made him risk everything to save her. And it's what keeps him from giving up and letting the Alliance catch her. River realises this in the final battle and it gives her the strength to take on the Reavers singlehandedly.
Mal goes to save Inara from the operative because he loves her, and she decides to stay with him at the end because she clearly loves him to. Kaylee as we all know loves Simon but it's only when he reciprocates that she finds the strength to keep fighting.
I love the final scene between Mal and River and his speech about what keeps Serenity flying. He loves that ship so much because it represents freedom for him. Even in his darkest moments, he never gives up on his boat. Remember Out Of Gas? He was willing to stay with Serenity til the end...
I agree with the above posts about the other themes in the film, especially individual freedom. Just thought I'd bring up my own favourite theme.
'We're still flying.'
'That's not much.'
'It's enough.'
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Thank you all! what interesting things to ponder. I want to be specific about a couple things I said. I did not mean that peace in itself was presented as undesirable. I am not talking a dualistic embrace of chaos here (going back, like apple bits). It was the totalitarian way in which the 'peace' was being foisted on people. Think how we tell you to and everything will be okay kind of 'peace.' This isn't really peace at all, but a violence glossed over with numbed calm. Though Joss might be libertarian, you don't need to be a libertarian to reject totalitarianism (hell, you don't even need to be a democrat). I'm talking 'peace' like the Borg were peacful. Its false, not real peace at all; uniformity is not the same as peace, even if it appears calm. Both young River in the dream and Mal complain that the Alliance tells people how to THINK. And that is the purpose of the Pax gas, control people's minds for the sake of calm and then call it peace. Martin Luther King Jr. was accused of "disturbing the peace" and he said in his letter from a Birmingham jail, something to the effect of, I am not disturbing the peace, there is no peace. I am only making visible the violence that is hidden. Reavers anyone?
I wonder if salvation comes from belief because belief is the most truly personal and free act. Well, belief and love. Even at the end of a gun barrel you cannot FORCE true belief or true love. And so, I am liking this thought of love as a theme. We start with Simon's love for River, and end with Mal's love for Serenity. Interesting.
(I do not however agree with the other "love stories" you mention. Mal and Inara are too conflicted to know what they really feel. And the Kaylee and Simon romance never references anything but physical gratification. I'm not sure they really love each other either. I mean, you know...yet.)
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