How do Reavers pilot ships, them being insane cannibals and such?

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Thursday, December 2, 2021 20:06
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CITIZEN

Sunday, October 16, 2005 7:10 PM

Quick note, not trying to start another little flaming session, just trying to explain myself.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I think you're analyzing this from a point of few of psychology, which I regard as a philosophy, which I don't subscribe too. I understand the whole thing from a perspective of the physical sciences, so it would put you in a position analogous to arguing the existance of God with an atheist.

I think your thinking on that point is a little flawed, but I won't labour the point. I look forward to discussing it with you in the future (in a more pertinent time and place). You seem new here (at least I haven't seen you around before) so I'll point you to the RWE threads. In particular my post:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=13976
I'd be interested in hearing your view points.

Quote:
Sometimes people are wrong, admittedly, contradicting them is fine. I was actually getting irritated reading your exchange with chris, not with me.

I think that’s kinda unfair, chris was at least as hostile toward me as I was toward him.

Quote:
But anyway, water under the bridge over the damn.

Good too hear, no hard feelings

.

As for the reason I'm here (again

):
Ignoring my reservations on the new origins of Reavers (and based on their actions within the series/film):
Human society is largely 'Alpha male/female' oriented. The Reavers are necessarily going to be a much more 'enhanced' version of this. I find it un-doubtful that any Reaver society will be based around an animalistic Alpha male system.
The strongest will lead, and they will be constantly challenged for that leadership, probably in violent confrontations.
As with any workable society you'll have Reavers who can fight, and Reavers who can think. Your thinkers will be the ones that can maintain and perhaps operate the ships, but will hold a fairly low place in the 'hierarchy'. They'll get the off casts from the 'fighters', which are the Reavers we see descending from the ships in the film, and the ones we hear most about. By off casts I mean mainly food and the like, the ‘thinkers’ will eat what is left behind by the ‘fighters’.

Regarding the children aspect it takes somewhat of a leap of faith that children would exist, I think.
However if Reavers raise children they will have a largely 'lion' like attitude to them. I.e. the Alpha male will rear children, and if the alpha male is replaced, then the children will be killed.
Reaver children will necessarily have to 'grow up' quick. Probably with some right of passage that includes a violent confrontation of some kind. I also think birth rate will be very high (due to the low level of 'impulse control' I believe they have, and the fact that they probably don't have much regard for birth control

). Also attrition rate amongst the newborn will be extremely high, for one because only the strongest infants would be allowed to survive, and I think 'sibling rivalry' will be actively encouraged.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
Even though I might, even though I try,
I can't

CITIZEN

Sunday, October 16, 2005 7:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Re: comics, I haven't read any, but comics and books associated with other series have always been treated pretty much like fan fic, as far as the show's bible is concerned. The events there don't get entered into the core source material, and often conflict with it.

The first name listed on the front of the Serenity comics is:
Joss Whedon.
I think we can take the comics as more canon than your average

.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
Even though I might, even though I try,
I can't

CHRISTHECYNIC

Sunday, October 16, 2005 8:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Firstly I was going to reply to the threads above by dreamtrove and christhecynic, then suggest we agree to disagree.

Stops us from having any kind of useful debate, but if we can not agree there's no point not admiting it, and thus stopping.

Quote:
Not sure I like the 'even Citizen' part , but I entirely agree.

Not meant as an insult, it's just that you seem to be the one who disagrees with me most strongly so us agreeing on something in spite of vastly different views at least implies it is worthy of consideration.

CITIZEN

Sunday, October 16, 2005 8:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Stops us from having any kind of useful debate, but if we can not agree there's no point not admiting it, and thus stopping.

Yep, I think that particular debat is going to end up with us polarized at opposite ends of the spectrum, so to speak, and repeating the same arguments over and over...

Quote:
Not meant as an insult, it's just that you seem to be the one who disagrees with me most strongly so us agreeing on something in spite of vastly different views at least implies it is worthy of consideration.

Heh, didn't think it was, I was being flippant, hence the tongue.
And yeah, I think it requires a certain level of 'ignoring' the obvious to assume the Reavers don't do things intelligently.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
Even though I might, even though I try,
I can't

CHRISTHECYNIC

Sunday, October 16, 2005 8:40 PM

Since we seem to have gone beyond the Reavers’ origins and back to survival I’d like to address something mentioned before.

You can’t raise a lion to be a French girl, but you can raise a dog to be a cat. That’s an important thing, I think. You can’t raise a lion to be like a human because of fundamental differences in both biology and instinctual basis.

Even in spite of vast physical differences behaviors can be learned, I once saw a cat that was raised by a crow, and sure enough it acted like a crow, a vastly deformed flightless crow, but a crow none the less.

There are a lot of examples of things like this, people often like to talk about dogs and cats because, as far as I know, that crossover is most common. Reavers are people, children of Reavers would also be people. There is no physical gap, and psychological gaps are easily bridged.

Obviously not anyone raised in that way would act Reaver like, there are always dissenters, but I don’t think that a dissenter could last to maturity in that setting.

Perhaps some less nasty Reaver subculture could evolve, perhaps, but not quickly. At the time of Firefly and Serenity any raised Reaver, as opposed to infected or otherwise created from an adult, would be like the ones they were raised by.

When speaking of Reavers I use “raise” in the loosest of fashions, I mean only given enough help to survive and being immersed in the environment. (Out of curiosity what is the minimum possible assistance needed for a strong infant to survive until able to fend for itself?)

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I think that’s kinda unfair, chris was at least as hostile toward me as I was toward him.

Well that's a demonstration of my lack of social skills, nothing I said was intended to be hostile, though it obviously it came out that way.

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, October 16, 2005 8:43 PM

Yeah, I am new, I think I said so.

Quote:

By citizen:
I think that’s kinda unfair, chris was at least as hostile toward me as I was toward him.

This is subjective. I had already replied to your posts to me, this wasn't how I read the exchange, but as I said, it's a purely subjective matter. I wasn't trying to make an issue of it.

Re: Comics, I said I hadn't seen them, if they're written by Joss that's another matter.

I'll respond to the psych thing but let me make this into two posts so the issue isn't confused.

On reaver kids, I suspect reavers probably reproduce by infecting other reavers with the prion. A curious argument my sister gave me on this was "why hasn't river infected the others" and I said "maybe she has" reaverism might take months to show up. Reaver Inara would be the most entertaining to watch, since reaver Jayne wouldn't be much of a change

I don't subscribe to the alpha male thing. I don't think it's safe to say for sure, but all theories are valid. It could be that the geeks who knew stuff might rule, possibly there would be no rule. If someone did rule, I don't think primal dominance would be the deciding factor, I think it would be raw evolution. Those most apt to expand the reaver group would be the leaders.

Remember that primal dominance exists in animals because of the constant sexual competition. Notice how in the absence of one gender, the primal dominance shifts to the power to do harm. The alpha boys at a boys school are not necessarily the ladies men, as they would tend to be in a coed environment. This part isn't theory, it's observation.

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, October 16, 2005 9:01 PM

Okay, Psychology.

You sent me that post, on parapsychology. Before I say anything else, I have to tell you as someone who does not believe in psychology, I mean plain old psychology, selling me on the idea of parapsychology is going to be a tough sell. I'm a skeptic, at times an extreme skeptic. I'm the sort of person who does not accept the existance of God without proof. To me, Judeo-christian God is an absolute absurdity.

Don't get me wrong, some psychologists, such as Carl Jung, have given us great insights, Maslows hierarchy of needs isn't total garbage, but in general, I think that the idea, that people can understand complex behavior this way and actually do something about it borders on pure fantasy. Without absolute understanding of the chemistry and neurology involved, you'd be shooting in the dark. The myth of psychology has led to the religion of psychiatry.

Can these people ever do anything to help anyone? Sure, by random luck. But for the most part, if I can use an analogy, this would be like saying faith healers have a grasp on solving surgical problems because people occassionally got better.

Now, that said, on to abe.

Abe had people trying to kill him all the time. These people weren't aparitions, they were assassins, and they were trying to kill him all the time. It was on his mind a bit.

The study. Being prepared for exposure to something potentially reaverous, might be emotional. It's nothing at all unexpected to see, it's far from proof of psychic phenomenon.

Parapsychology is the lunatic fringe of psychology, which itself is a field of study I'm already tremendously skeptical of. Most cause and effect relationships studied and proven in the social sciences are bogus. Often they are nothing more than elaborate arguments usually set up by people seeking to forward a particular political point of view, and the broadcast that conviction upon the masses. So why wouldn't parapsychology be any different, only instead of a mainstream political idea, a fairly wacky notion.

I think chris said something about my telepathic ants post, I think that's a very long way from this. Telepathic and precognitive humans isn't something I support as an idea, or a possibility.

Here are some things that are possible:

The brain internally does a lot of subconscious reasoning. Stored in your brain are personality templates of people you have met, this is known. It's also highly likely that there are situational templates. These can then be played out and conclusions can be arrived at that to the untrained mind appear to be psychic. But no one is moving forks with their mind.

CITIZEN

Sunday, October 16, 2005 9:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
On reaver kids, I suspect reavers probably reproduce by infecting other reavers with the prion. A curious argument my sister gave me on this was "why hasn't river infected the others"

River was never exposed to the PAX. She was made the way she is by medical operations and essentially torture. I'd say that's why she hasn't 'infected' the rest of the crew.
Further more River's been on the ship for more than two years (the movie takes place 18 months after the end of the series, and the series takes place over several months).
The guy in Bushwacked probably wasn't on that ship for more than a few days, so IF it's a prion element I'd hold that as proof that none of the crew, including River, have been exposed.

Quote:
Remember that primal dominance exists in animals because of the constant sexual competition. Notice how in the absence of one gender, the primal dominance shifts to the power to do harm.

That was pretty much what I was trying to get at. The fact that I think the Alpha Male would be the Breeder is much to do with Humans evolutionary past. Look at most social mamals. It's nearly always the Alpha Male who has dominance on the breeding. It is also nearly always the strongest and best fighter who becomes Alpha Male.
Even in modern human society it is the most assertive member of the group, and often the best 'fighter' who becomes 'leader' of the group. It is seldom (if ever) the most intelligent.
It makes sense to me, given Reavers aggressive tendencies, that the most aggressive Reaver, with the strength and abillity to 'back it up' would take control.
But that's just my opinion.

As for the Parapsychology thing, it would be great if you would post on that thread. I think we could have a lively and inspiring debate on the subject.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
Even though I might, even though I try,
I can't

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, October 16, 2005 11:39 PM

Okay, I see an inconsistancy here. I have to disagree with something posted be DREAMTROVE.

Firefly has some element of fantasy in it because River is psychic. I think the implication is an increased state of mental awareness is psychic, rather than just appearing as such. I don't know if Joss believes this or not, but it's a more interesting possibility for the story than the other.

So, in firefly reality, sure, characters who are hyper aware are psychic. I don't know if this applies to reavers.

River not being exposed to the PAX we have no idea whether this happened or not, there's no reason not. Someone suggested that you have to ingest infected flesh. If this were the case, than River would not have passed it on, she hasn't been eaten by anyone on the ship. She wouldn't have eaten anyone, she might have been exposed to the PAX directly under controlled circumstances. In addition to infecting by ingestion, someone could infect possibly by direct blood contact. Has River bitten anyone and made them bleed or scratched them? This is all just speculation of course, but it's fun.

I'm beginning to think alpha male breeder rules as a matter of the minute, not as the result of long term evolution, which is what I was suggesting. Make everyone sterile, or change things in any way, and this would probably change. But the social dominance you described could take place.

What happens with this in gay society? Does anyone know? I'd be interested in hearing alpha male dominance among a completely gay population, if anyone would care to share any relevant experience.

As for parapsychology, I'd be up for a debate on the topic if it moved a little closer to what I call reality. I've seen all the fuzzy picture UFOs of the psychic world. I'd be interested in a) is any of this hypothetically possible outside of normal humans; and b) what mechanisms might this happen within normal humans, such as the active subconscious I was describing earlier.

I'm not interested in discussing it as it relates to Abe Lincolm, however. I'm only interested in discussing it as it relates to Firefly.

DREAMTROVE

Monday, October 17, 2005 3:13 AM

I think it's time to name this thread BDT

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