NEW STATESMAN: HUGO CHAVEZ

POSTED BY: Howard
UPDATED: Saturday, November 5, 2005 03:55
VIEWED: 5692
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SIGNYM

Sunday, October 16, 2005 3:34 PM

Actually, Eyetooth is an idiot and Loggerhead follows close behind. (Sorry guys, but Eyetooth started this and Loggerhead jumped on the bandwagon.)

The subject of the thread is whatever the initiating person wants it to be. Calling Howard a troll and a retard just for posting an aricle is, in itself, being a troll. As for calling someone a "retard"- my daughter is retarded. She's not the sharpest tool in the shed, but she's smart enough to know (1) it applies to her and (b) it's an insult. Comparing you to her- you don't even rank.

So, if you disagree, bring facts or logic to the table, or preferably both.

Please don't think they give a shit.

LOGGERHEAD

Sunday, October 16, 2005 4:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
If you are calling someone an idiot, be prepared to back it up. If not, the troll? It's you.

I'm sure that from Howard's local Starbucks Chavez looks like the slickest thing since Mao. However, he has neither the knowledge nor the experience necessary to debate the subject.

I was quite careful before I replied. I took the time to find and many of his posts for the past three weeks and stand by my position.

As to the troll statement . . . please.

SIGNYM

Sunday, October 16, 2005 6:01 PM

Quote:
I'm sure that from Howard's local Starbucks Chavez looks like the slickest thing since Mao. However, he has neither the knowledge nor the experience necessary to debate the subject.

I was quite careful before I replied. I took the time to find and many of his posts for the past three weeks and stand by my position.

Okay- sure you're from Venezuela, but specifically what experience and insight did you bring to the table? Why don't you tell us your obervations? That way, we can all benefit from your experience. Simply saying "He's an idiot" isn't a debate of any sort; it's just a ...er... carefully thought-out trollish response.

Please don't think they give a shit.

SEVENPERCENT

Sunday, October 16, 2005 7:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by loggerhead:
I'm sure that from Howard's local Starbucks Chavez looks like the slickest thing since Mao. However, he has neither the knowledge nor the experience necessary to debate the subject.

As to the troll statement . . . please.

Then show us where it's wrong. I personally don't know shit about Venezuela or Hugo Chavez, and won't try to claim I do. So I get a posted article, which sounds fair enough, from Howard.

From you, all we get is "Howard's an idiot" and "you don't know, I do."

You aren't debating Howard, you're debating the article. You claim to have first-hand knowledge of Venezuela, so show some credibility and class. If you can't argue it, don't show up to the thread, call someone an idiot with no evidence, and run. There's no 'please' about it, that's trollish behavior.

7%

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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

EYETOOTH

Sunday, October 16, 2005 7:17 PM

I've obseverved this Howard character for some time, and have noted that he's hardly one to be civil towards those who disagree with him. I was aggressive because I could predict that any reasoned indictment of Chavez's policies would have been met with abuse.

I see Howard as a symptom of PC message board laxity. The more nitwitted far-right rants usually get deleted posthaste on any board, save for the places that cater to them; far-left antics on the other hand are widely tolerated. I see Howard's chest-thumping posts/cut-paste spams as just as worthless as your average OMG ZION/WAHABI/MUD bullshit. Granted some worthwhile discussion occasionally comes out of his threads, but damned if it doesn't have much to do with his initial intent. His arguments consistently have all the sophistication of "because I say so".

Perhaps my phlegm was a bit trollish (and needless - it's a message board after all), but I'm sick of bully-boy leftists being tolerated in otherwise civil environments, on the internet and off.

ps The article may be "fair minded" in that it questions wether Chavez is really radical enough for the sake of El Revaloosheown, but it's still obviously in the service of making him look good. Incidentally it reminds me of conservative profiles on Karl Rove.

CITIZEN

Sunday, October 16, 2005 7:59 PM

I agree to some extent with you eyetooth. I've been on the receiving end of Howards inabillity to accept differing view points.
However, the argument 'your an idiot' is one that will not be tolerated on these boards, no matter who it comes from.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
Even though I might, even though I try,
I can't

SIGNYM

Sunday, October 16, 2005 11:00 PM

Eyetooth- you're posts don't reach just Howard, they reach all of us. So leaving Howard out of the picture, can you tell the rest of us what your reasoning is?

Please don't think they give a shit.

EYETOOTH

Monday, October 17, 2005 1:43 AM

I don't have any direct experience there. My brother lived in Caracas for a couple years in the mid-90's.

I have nasty feelings towards Chavez because he has

emasculated the judiciary; tried to place his legitimacy in plebiscites (a BAD sign, according to many historical precedents); created his own personal anti-poverty initiatives, heavily politicised and beholden to him; lent moral support to nasty rebel movements across Latin America (FARC in Columbia, for example); pissed away much of Venezuala's bumper oil revenues on harebrained foreign-policy schemes; and generally valued ideology and his personal power well before his ostensible goal, raising Venezualans out of poverty.

All these examples are taken from stories in the mainstream media (BBC, The Economist, NPR ect.) at various points throughout the past 7-8 years. I could dig up some links given a bit of trouble.

On top of this I simply find the man distasteful and a media whore, like subcommandante Marcos writ large. It annoys me to no end that he's taken seriously.

SEVENPERCENT

Monday, October 17, 2005 2:24 AM

And had you said all that in your first post, Eyetooth, we could already have had a decent discussion instead of spending half the thread discussing thread ettiquette.

And I believe it was Signy (might have been Citizen) who said that you aren't just presenting to Howard, you are also presenting to the rest of us. I am in total agreement with him.

Instead of coloring our responses toward you, next time take the high road. If Howard wants to namecall and troll back, we'll get on him about it. But your first impression on these threads has made you look like a bad guy, when I'm sure you aren't.

Post some links next time. Counterpoint line by line if you have to. Some of us, like myself, start out having no opinion on the subject because we have no real knowledge of the subject. But coming off like an ass just makes it harder for us to take you seriously when you do, in fact, make a solid point.

Just sayin'.

7%

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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

LOGGERHEAD

Monday, October 17, 2005 2:13 PM

Here's the hero of Venezuela in action.

The right to protest is key in the free world but, unfortunately, not in Venezuela. If you protest against Hugo Chavez you'll be killed or "detained" permanently. Hundreds have simply vanished. this is not opinion, it's documented fact:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR530032004

http://vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200403020624

http://www.dj.com.ve/article.asp?CategoryId=10717&ArticleId=200530

That's what communists do. Any dissidence is met with violence. For comparison with a free society, see how Cindy Sheehan has the freedom to speak her piece and has even met with President Bush. In Venezuela, she would have disappeared quietly.

Why don't you hear about this in the Venezuelan media? Freedom of the press, right? Wrong. It's *illegal* to speak anything negative about Hugo Chavez. Not opinion, documented fact:

http://www.freemedia.at/r_wl_venezuela.htm

http://english.eluniversal.com/2005/10/15/en_pol_art_14A619921.shtml

http://hrw.org/press/2003/06/venezuela062303-ltr.htm

The Venezuelan people don't have the opportunity to hear the truth about Hugo Chavez because the media is subject to harassment, attack, or imprisonment (although the more likely scenario is that offending reporters will simply be "disappeared"). That's what communists do.

But Venezuela is a democracy, right? That's how it was formed decades ago, but now, not so much:

http://vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200509152101

Want to work within the system to get this turkey ousted? You better not. These people are being prosecuted simply for encouraging people to vote in the referendum to get rid of Chavez:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/07/08/venezu11299.htm

Think you own your own personal property? Think again. Chavez can raise your taxes *retroactively* for years into the past, then take your property from you without notice. It's a Marxist dream, but a nightmare for anyone who loves freedom. Not opinion, fact:

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200509130354

http://english.eluniversal.com/2005/10/15/en_eco_art_15A619909.shtml

So how is Chavez's government doing otherwise? Well, apparently totalitarianism does not equal competence:

http://www.rev.com.ve/ver/default.asp?caso=11&idrev=9&idsec=32&idedi=1
0&idart=103

The government is a disaster at all levels. The functions that it controls are implemented poorly. At least Perez Jimenez was a capable administrator. Chavez is not. He is a Castro lackey, who is using Venezuela's wealth to prop up his own failed country:

http://www.rev.com.ve/ver/default.asp?caso=10&idrev=9&idsec=34&idedi=1
0

So there is your hero. Why Venezuela has been singled out for this ignominy is beyond comprehension. This is not Iraq. We are in the western hemisphere and were once the pinnacle for freedom and democracy in Latin America. This is an indescribably beautiful country with an embarrassment of natural resources. Now it appears our destiny is to be the next Cuba, where repression and poverty are the daily life.

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