How do Reavers pilot ships, them being insane cannibals and such?

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UPDATED: Thursday, December 2, 2021 20:06
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DREAMTROVE

Thursday, October 13, 2005 4:33 AM

Not passing judgement on the shark vs. wolf debate, should it arise. Both are valid possibilities, but of course would create vastly different realities:

In Reaver is wolf, it's calculating, methodical and plans attacks with acumen and forethought.

The reaver is shark world, it's a mindless killing machine. It attacks in groups because there's a mad free-for-all.

I have to confess that what we see, visually, is a point for the reaver is shark world. I guess I find reaver is wolf world in some ways preferable, but I can see also a compromise here: Reaver is shark-wolf.

I'm going to kill them all. That oughtta distract 'em.

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, October 13, 2005 4:43 AM

We all know everything now.

"transformed by some localised disaster"

yeah agreed, I post something similar as a possibility. Still pax is prion is perhaps more interesting, because it leaves the possibility that random people are potential reavers and everyone else is food. People are different.

I don't buy the radiation is a yay for reavers. They're still organisms, they're actually still human. They're going to have the same radiation sickness as you me or a bacteria would have. One of the limits of sci-fi is you can't do whatever you want. Unlike in fantasy, you're bound by certain rules. Radiation can only help a machine or creature which is so different it doesn't classify as life as we know it.

On communication, here's a really bad idea.

Well it's a good idea.

But it's bad for us living normal humans.

Well you living normal humans.

Reavers are telepathic.

For some reason it's always been assumed that telepathic creatures are geniuses. This simply ins't the case in nature. The most telepathic beings, such as ants, and possibly some jelly fish species, are intelligent sure, when compared to moss, but not when compared to Einstein.

Telepathic Wolf Shark Reaver is a Prion-generated neo subspecies, and River is one of them.

I love it. This is just getting better with the telling.

I'm going to kill them all. That oughtta distract 'em.

CLETUSMUSASHI

Thursday, October 13, 2005 6:49 AM

I was a bit shaky about the plausibility of the radiation requirement myself, but it was a puzzle piece that I had to try to fit. After all, the shorter their life expectancy, the harder it is to get their population to the point it's obviously built to, but the lack of radiation containment seems to be a recurring theme. Maybe the radiation is necessary for "turning", so they keep the level up on raiding ships where recruiting is a possibility, but they spend most of their time on other, safer ships, that stay out near Miranda.
Or, maybe they're all a bunch of big fakers like Mal, that just pretend to fly around without containment in order to look scary.

I'll be in my bunk.

DONCOAT

Thursday, October 13, 2005 11:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
For some reason it's always been assumed that telepathic creatures are geniuses. This simply ins't the case in nature. The most telepathic beings, such as ants, and possibly some jelly fish species, are intelligent sure, when compared to moss, but not when compared to Einstein.

Just out of curiosity, by what definition of 'telepathic' do ants and jellyfish qualify? They communicate in ways that are quite alien to us, but there's no telepathy involved. (This skeptic would require some extraordinarily good evidence to accept that claim!)

GEEKMAFIA

Thursday, October 13, 2005 6:54 PM

This reminds me of an old story seen here in snopes.
seems pretty relevant

http://www.snopes.com/medical/asylum/tirenut.asp

WASH: Little River just gets more colorful by the moment. What'll she do next?
ZOE: Either blow us all up or rub soup in our hair. It's a toss-up.
WASH: I hope she does the soup thing. It's always a hoot, and we don't all die from it.

Liou coe shway duh biao-tze huh hoe-tze fuh ur-tze

XEROGRAVITY

Thursday, October 13, 2005 7:10 PM

Ya know you guys/gals have alot of very thought-provoking concepts about the origins of reavers (or reivers ~ whatever spelling most pleases you).

Funny thing... cannibalism isn't an original concept. You should crack open books of Europeans travelling via ship... not your politically correctified history books where ship's captains were all mythical slavers trying to build some ruthless empire .. I mean the direct accounts of captains sailing the great endless abyss. The world was full of "savages" who'd gladly lure you ashore, ambush you, and have you on a spit over the village fire.

Funny thing. Whole otherworld cultures existed with cannabilism. Somehow they didn't self-destruct by eating each other. They always only ate the "outsiders".

XG ~ fan of the grossly distorted villain, "Captain Bligh" (I know, I read his account)

No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

CITIZEN

Thursday, October 13, 2005 7:42 PM

Erm, I feel I have to reply here...

Ya'll are talking about Reaver society, language and all the rest and, well, ya know, there's not one scrap of evidence that say's they have such things...

And I'm afraid the argument, Reavers can pilot ships because they pilot ships in the series/film just don't cut it...

Select to view spoiler:

These guys aren't insane, they're beyond insane. They don't have lucid moments.
They don't sit around the dinner table and say:
"I say chaps, I'm a little peckish, do you fellows fancy a quick township snack?"
If they acted the way they do because they went insane from the enormity of space, then I could believe they have lucid times in which they could pilot a spaceship. However, the film makes it clear that they are the way they are because of a chemical action. Effects like that don't disappear, or get turned on/off for convenience sake.
The closest parallel I can think of for Reavers would be the Zombies from 28 days later. They aren't people, even insane people, anymore. They are an emotion, un-tempered by reason or even other emotions. They are rage, pure hatred and anger.
Those are the Reavers that Joss suggests in Serenity, and they are not capable of piloting spacecraft...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
Even though I might, even though I try,
I can't

SEP7IMUS

Thursday, October 13, 2005 8:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I disagree that social behavior is pure nurture. A lion raised by french girls will not behave like a french girl. These are minor social differences between american girls and french girls, tied to a very minor difference between a black person and a white one, these aren't statistically significant forces kicking around. Not like lions and reavers.

Am I a lion? I don't think so. I never thought of myself as a lion.

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, October 13, 2005 8:19 PM

Okay, I wrote a big long post and apparantly it got eaten because it's not here. So to summarize

1. Ants communicate by releasing neurotransmitters by brain cells, and shooting them out antennae, it's the same process that happens in their brains as out. This is not smellovision here, it's clearly closer to true telepathy.

2. Some species of jellyfish contain semiautomonomous units which the brain communicates with by a sort of pseudo telepathy, but it's all inside the fish. This is different from the light based communication they use with other jellyfish.

I think this not-human-anymore is part reality and part fantasy. The definition of human is a very fuzzy one, and people who write sf and come up with the not-human twist are like people who believe everything breaks down into good and evil. In short, they don't understand people very well. Joss clearly does, so reavers are bound to be more complex.

I figure Joss sometimes does the simple thing, since he made soulless demons and vampires as enemies in buffy. Vampires with souls was an attempt at complexity, but it was weak, and well, a little corny. But I expect more from reavers, the alliance and various components of firefly. I think firefly is launching much more into shades of grey than the more black and white of the buffyverse.

I'm still backing the sharkwolf hypothesis here. It sounds best.

Evidence for the possible telepathy of reavers is this:

1. River is a reaver for all practical purposes, and she's telepathic. Sure she's a lot more cogent than most of them, we would assume, actually we don't have to assume it because she annihilates them.

2. Some sort of vague telepathy or empathy would work well to help them coordinate things. Their ability to communicate through talking seems limited, and clearly they need to carry out pretty complex tasks.

3. If sharks were telepathic, they might behave more like wolves. This would generate what we see, as a pattern of behavior.

Telepathy, in general, in sf, is stupid. It's dumb and gets dumber. So for it to be interesting something interesting should happen with it. I was a little upset at the implication that River had gained enough control to specifically here thoughts she wanted to instead of random ones at the end of the movie. OTOH it could be just that everyone can predict what people are going to say to some extent, exaggerated. But if this is omniscient telepathy, that's an amazingly boring idea Joss.

Reavers on the other hand would have a much less cognitive telepathy. The would be able to tranfer will, or feel pain, or something. Like, if we're on a reaver ship and kill a reaver in the engine room, four reavers on the bridge would feel it.

It would be like a reaver says "Hey joe, this is sam talking in your head, let's go grab mal and bite his ears off."

CITIZEN

Thursday, October 13, 2005 8:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreamtrove:
1. River is a reaver for all practical purposes, and she's telepathic. Sure she's a lot more cogent than most of them, we would assume, actually we don't have to assume it because she annihilates them.

Erm, no. There's nothing, anywhere, that links the Reavers to River in anyway... beyond conjecture of people who WANT to see a link. I don't hold to the idea that River or the other 'students' of the 'academy' were made to kill the Reavers.

Select to view spoiler:

May I remind you that River was made the way she is by psychological torture, and willful medical procedures carried out on her brain. The Reaver's were made the way they are through the PAX

Quote:
2. Some sort of vague telepathy or empathy would work well to help them coordinate things. Their ability to communicate through talking seems limited, and clearly they need to carry out pretty complex tasks.

That's the "they must be able to pilot ships because they do it in the series/film" argument. I'm not denying that the Reaver's show complex behaviours in the series/film, I'm denying that the argument set forth for their origins allows for that sort of complex behaviours.

Select to view spoiler:

Your using the argument of 'well there's shades of grey' etc etc, I'm not denying that either. I'm saying that the explination of the PAX sets out the Reavers as more simple than a rabid animal.

Quote:
3. If sharks were telepathic, they might behave more like wolves. This would generate what we see, as a pattern of behavior.

Erm, what? If Sharks had complex brains they'd behave more like wolves, like Dolphins. They don't because they are essentially dumb 'lone' hunters. It's nothing to do with the absence of telepathy. In fact, with out a complex brain, even if they had telepathy they wouldn't act like wolves.

Quote:
Telepathy, in general, in sf, is stupid. It's dumb and gets dumber. So for it to be interesting something interesting should happen with it. I was a little upset at the implication that River had gained enough control to specifically here thoughts she wanted to instead of random ones at the end of the movie. OTOH it could be just that everyone can predict what people are going to say to some extent, exaggerated. But if this is omniscient telepathy, that's an amazingly boring idea Joss.

Why?

Quote:
Reavers on the other hand would have a much less cognitive telepathy. The would be able to tranfer will, or feel pain, or something. Like, if we're on a reaver ship and kill a reaver in the engine room, four reavers on the bridge would feel it.

Reavers are not telepathic.

Quote:
It would be like a reaver says "Hey joe, this is sam talking in your head, let's go grab mal and bite his ears off."

Even if they were, they'd communicate through images and emotion, not words.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
Even though I might, even though I try,
I can't

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