Discussion for the subject: What happened to my show, 'cause Serenity wasn't it?!
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 03:51
VIEWED: 33215
PAGE 9 of 11
Quote:
Originally posted by mali:
p.s. if one more person writes that Zoe needed to cry like a girly-girl, i'm going to be ill....she is a SOLDIER, people!
~ Soupcatcher is a hottie ~
For crying out loud! Soldiers don't cry? It might not be the image that we see, but lots of soldiers, guys and gals cry a lot. It's a normal human response.
and if you put it in a movie for the right reason, it can serve to illustrate something...
Or are we really just looking for a caricature?
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
When I said "Zoe never would have questioned Mal's shooting that man," folks here understood what I was refering to. Of course you are perfectly right, she didn't question the shooting specifically, so much as the shoving. It's not "fan fiction of my own" it's imprecission or what I'd call conversational metonymy. Kudos for being the only one who caught it, and the only one who misunderstood me.
It's hard to see how Zoe disagreeing with Mal is metonymic with Zoe agreeing with Mal. To quote Inigo Montoya from Princess Bride: "I do not think [the word] means, what you think it means." Imprecision and metonymy are not synonymous. I tenderly suggest that you see dictionary.com.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
And never did I say that Zoe never questions Mal's actions. Interestingly, all the examples you sight are examples of Zoe questioning Mal's actions from the standpoint of safety and prudence, never on moral grounds, never.
Interesting point, but I think you're selling her short. She doesn't seem like an amoral person to me at all, which is what she'd have to be to follow tactically sound but immoral orders. But I'll keep that in mind as I rewatch the eps.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
And holy-moly, I never said that Mal never yelled at the crew, how out of touch with reality do you think I am?
Based on your complete reversal of reality in your Zoe questioning Mal example I thought you completely out of touch with reality, though only temporarily, but perhaps not infrequently. I had no idea the problem was due to imprecise typing.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
LOL I felt that the frequency and beligerance of Mal's yelling in the BDM was excessive and presented, particularly to the uninitiated, a generally adversarial relationship with his crew which I found out of keeping with the relationship developed by the end of the 14th episode. I in no way suggested that he should sit them all down to tea and crumpets, only that the ratio of Mal's yelling to everything else in the movie needed adjusting as it felt gratuitous.
An interesting point about the uninitiated, but I now can't think of Mal doing much yelling out of anger in the movie. When you mentioned yelling the first scene I thought of was the lounge scene where, it now occurs to me, Jayne does almost all of the yelling. I now can think only of Mal yelling at Simon after Simon punched Mal and again after the bar fight, and both seem natural and understandable. What scenes are you thinking of?
There definitely were adversarial moments from time to time, maybe even frequently, but I think you're discounting the dire financial straits that Mal was in and the reaction he has in those situations based on his behavior in the series.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Ach, lordy, more lecturing from my favorite Firefly authority!
You're such a tease!
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
You're telling me that I'm wrong about interpretive matters, like there's some objective measure of these things. Sure, Jayne is of course, obviously, the least loyal of Mal's crew. He might die for Mal, he might not, depending on circumstances...how the heck is constantly brow-beating the entire crew gonna keep these two "loose cannons" in line?
When you said "Every last one of these people would die for him" I assumed you meant every last one of these people would die for him. My apologies for misinterpreting that. And I think it's an important misinterpretation, because loyalty to Mal was not a given, but something Mal had to earn and re-earn on a regular basis. Because the crew's services are not contracted, as in enlistments, Mal has to get the crew to want to follow him; true leadership. (My favorite defn of leadership is from Harry Truman: Getting people to do what they don't want to do and getting them to like it.) Sometimes Mal used morality, other times he used intimidation, but this again is consistent with the series. Obviously if Mal relies on intimidation too long he will lose the crew, as Kaylee points out when cleaning the cargo bay with Jayne. And Kaylee is hardly a loose cannon; just someone with a big heart but a small reservoir of courage.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Please, if you're gonna write any more of these rants, GGreen, could you cut back on the smarmy innuendo and sarcasm? Damn! You are constantly, I would say willfully, misunderstanding me for effect here.
Sorry. When you accused Joss of "senseless pandering", I assumed tenderness was unimportant to you, thus I went for brevity and clarity. Again my apologies. But why are your largely unsupported assertions about Joss not a rant whereas my supported rebuttals are?
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I didn't like Simon's punching the Captain...
If you'd've said that at the beginning things would've been different. I could've said "Yes, many people didn't like that: Kaylee, Zoe, the Captain, and probably even Simon after he realized what he'd done." But rather than merely stating an opinion you claimed that the act was fan driven and therefore inconsistent with TV Simon's actions. My point, with examples, was that this behavior is consistent with TV Simon and therefore not fan driven. I see no flaw with your not liking the punch, it's your reason for not liking the punch that I feel is unsupported by the series.
I'll conclude my comments by saying that, in my humble and tender (I hope) opinion, if there was any dilution of Joss, or pandering, it was in Firefly not Serenity. Joss has said repeatedly that the tv execs expected something other than the first episode, so Joss moderated Firefly to try to appease the concerns of the execs. From what Joss has said of the movie making experience, there was no interference from the execs on the story line or the characters. So what we got in the series was Blended Joss, while what we got in the movie was Single Malt Joss. While Single Malt Joss is better than most movie experiences, and I hope for a sequel, I prefer the warmth, charm, spaciousness, and music of Blended Joss.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
For crying out loud! Soldiers don't cry? It might not be the image that we see, but lots of soldiers, guys and gals cry a lot. It's a normal human response.
True, but Mal and Zoe don't cry, at least not yet. I would wager that Mal and Zoe are more professional friends than deep personal friends. They are mutually loyal and respect and trust each other completely. They wouldn't burden each other with their personal problems because it's just not professional. They would die for each other but they won't cry for each other; they've seen too much death already, especially of friends, to open themselves to that again.
This maybe one of the reasons Mal doesn't express his feelings or commit to Inara, because he doesn't want to risk the loss (plus there's that whoring thing). Interestingly this would mean that Zoe is more whole than Mal, since Zoe did establish and maintain a deep personal commitment to Wash.
Anyway, I'm sure that in the near future I'll watch the series again and I'll try to remember to watch for Mal and Zoe sharing deep personal feelings rather than just professional assessments. I'm betting they're not there.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:For crying out loud! Soldiers don't cry?
Sure, absolutely. But from the very first images of her in the Battle of Serenity, Joss has made it crystal clear that Zoe is an absolutely solid military leader, cool as steel under the worst kind of pressure. I think her mini-battle-freakout with the reavers was about as emotional as she was going to get, in keeping with her portrayal so far. Also, as Soupcatcher pointed out in another thread:
Quote:
...back to the scene on Haven when Mal explains his plan. None of the other people there know what war is like except Zoe. And she also has the most to lose from declaring war on the Alliance. Whereas Mal decided to not die after Serenity Valley Zoe chose to live and part of that was falling in love and marrying Wash. She knows that all of them could die and she still chooses to go along with the plan. It says something to me about her strength that she, of all the crew, makes a fully informed decision. And she also pays the highest price of any of the survivors.
I like the point about how Zoe is the only one who really has a sense of what they're in for. Again, consistent with her character so far.
I just really enjoy Zoe's very nonstereotypical female character (yay Joss), and to say she needs to be either crying or pregnant immediately puts her back to the most cliched, overdone roles for women in film. Sure, it's possible, but it's just been SO done already. Joss's writing is much better than that...
m.
p.s. On the other hand, my only real beef with Zoe in Serenity was that she always had her hair down, ramping up the gorgeous factor in a thoroughly impractical way....as any longhaired person can tell you...
~ Scootch over, Wash! ~
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Quote:
Originally posted by ggreen29:Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
For crying out loud! Soldiers don't cry? It might not be the image that we see, but lots of soldiers, guys and gals cry a lot. It's a normal human response.
True, but Mal and Zoe don't cry, at least not yet. I would wager that Mal and Zoe are more professional friends than deep personal friends. They are mutually loyal and respect and trust each other completely. They wouldn't burden each other with their personal problems because it's just not professional. They would die for each other but they won't cry for each other; they've seen too much death already, especially of friends, to open themselves to that again.
This maybe one of the reasons Mal doesn't express his feelings or commit to Inara, because he doesn't want to risk the loss (plus there's that whoring thing). Interestingly this would mean that Zoe is more whole than Mal, since Zoe did establish and maintain a deep personal commitment to Wash.
Anyway, I'm sure that in the near future I'll watch the series again and I'll try to remember to watch for Mal and Zoe sharing deep personal feelings rather than just professional assessments. I'm betting they're not there.
Professional? Just how professional?
"Take me sir, take me hard?" That's pretty darn by the numbers "Professional". What side of Professional would a Professional serve to do that? I don't have to count out the scenes to you. It's just not right to paint a mere caricature of these folks when they were set up to be a bit more than "Zoe - professional soldier, loyal to the bone. End of story"...
Thanks for summing it all up for me in 3 words though... Guess don't need to watch anymore since everything is summed up, done with, completely predictable and analysis free.
Woot!
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Er, are we talking about Zoe, the character, or are we just talking about "she's a SOLDIER people"? Me thinks you are still painting a caricature of "absolutely solid military leader, cool as stelel under the worst kind of pressure" not capable of one minutae of feelings and crying? I didn't realize she was some sort of tinm-man cum robot deal. Maybe now we are doing some sort of crossover with Andromeda or something - weird Universe this is...
And we maintain this kind of caricature, I think now we are going to hop from one sort of stereotypical chracter (I assumer it's the blubbering woman melting under the slightest incident) over to another one (the I am so the super perfect Rambo professional soldier/killer that I don't waste time with emotions). urp. No thanks, I think I'll just still with the normal "Oh, I am a so deeply flawed human character that I can exhibit a practically completely professional exterior while also display some humanity and emotions at the most disquieting times."
Sorry, what you've proposed just seem so "one-dimensional".
Quote:
Originally posted by mali:Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:For crying out loud! Soldiers don't cry?
Sure, absolutely. But from the very first images of her in the Battle of Serenity, Joss has made it crystal clear that Zoe is an absolutely solid military leader, cool as steel under the worst kind of pressure. I think her mini-battle-freakout with the reavers was about as emotional as she was going to get, in keeping with her portrayal so far. Also, as Soupcatcher pointed out in another thread:Quote:
...back to the scene on Haven when Mal explains his plan. None of the other people there know what war is like except Zoe. And she also has the most to lose from declaring war on the Alliance. Whereas Mal decided to not die after Serenity Valley Zoe chose to live and part of that was falling in love and marrying Wash. She knows that all of them could die and she still chooses to go along with the plan. It says something to me about her strength that she, of all the crew, makes a fully informed decision. And she also pays the highest price of any of the survivors.
I like the point about how Zoe is the only one who really has a sense of what they're in for. Again, consistent with her character so far.
I just really enjoy Zoe's very nonstereotypical female character (yay Joss), and to say she needs to be either crying or pregnant immediately puts her back to the most cliched, overdone roles for women in film. Sure, it's possible, but it's just been SO done already. Joss's writing is much better than that...
m.
p.s. On the other hand, my only real beef with Zoe in Serenity was that she always had her hair down, ramping up the gorgeous factor in a thoroughly impractical way....as any longhaired person can tell you...
~ Scootch over, Wash! ~
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
this kind of caricature, I think now we are going to hop from one sort of stereotypical chracter (I assumer it's the blubbering woman melting under the slightest incident) over to another one
Granted, you have a point. But you're the only one here insisting Zoe has no emotions. I'm just saying she shows her emotions in nonstereotypic ways, in _action_. Consider her portrayal in "War Stories." She collects money, launches a plan--the scenes where she cuts off Gepetto's rant by choosing Wash, cooly putting Mal's ear in her vest--this is a person who reacts immediately, makes hard decisions. She's a lot like Mal that way.
Or consider her conversation with Wash in Heart of Gold, where she insists that they might have a child. She doesn't get all mushy about it, but just says it like fact, so you know she's been thinking about it. She is very much a human, _normal_ character, she's just not "girly".
It reminds me of something Roseanne Barr said about Joss from when he worked on her show--"How'd he know so much about what it's like to be a middle-aged white working mom?"
Joss's characters are different--that's not caricature--it's just different.
m.
~ Scootch over, Wash! ~
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Quote:
Originally posted by ggreen29:
True, but Mal and Zoe don't cry, at least not yet.
Exactly.
Quote:
Zoe is more whole than Mal, since Zoe did establish and maintain a deep personal commitment to Wash.
Yes, I really think so.
I'm not sure where you're going with the "Professional, not personal" thang. I always thought it was a key combination of both. My favorite episode (today--it changes daily) was War Stories because it told us so much about the relationship between Zoe & Wash, Zoe & Mal, via the relationship between Mal & Wash. "There's obeying going on right under my nose!"
This kills me, because I think there is so much potential development here--when Zoe questions Mal, when she doesn't. The way the camera always flashes to Zoe listening to Mal's decision, and _thinking_...the way Wash always begged her to talk to Mal on some particular point, and she never did unless _she_ wanted to.
Damn, I can't believe the show was cancelled.
m.
~ Scootch over, Wash! ~
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"Serenity" does get better the more times you watch it. Still it's not Firefly and Firefly the series was significantly better. Serenity is good, Firefly is/was great!
I mourned the loss of Firefly when I watched Serenity the first couple times and could not believe the foolish choice to kill off Wash and Book. The more I watch Serenity though the more it shines as something good on it's own. At the end of Serenity we are left with a smaller crew that is even more bonded to each other.
It would have been better if Joss had kept "Firefly" as it was and just made some great movies (and a return as a TV series). But I have hope that the "new" Serenity can still bring a good future of excellent entertainment for us.
This last time watching Serenity I tried to view it as if I'd never watched Firefly. And I think maybe it does succeed in being a "good" movie for non-fans (who hopefully are now fans). Sure they miss a ton of the details because they don't know the background of the characters like those who've watched the series a few times, but still it seems like it works.
Perhaps the future is brighter than we think? Maybe Joss has gotten this foolish notion of killing off beloved characters out of his system? Maybe now that he's made a good "BDM" perhaps he can realize the real potential is back as a series? (and pull enough of the right strings to get it back on the air as a series)
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