Post Serenity: Is the Fireflyverse even remotely pro-government anymore?warning: spoilers

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Thursday, November 24, 2005 06:58
VIEWED: 10014
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CITIZEN

Friday, October 7, 2005 5:21 PM

Finn:
I'm saying Nazism is neither left nor right. You seem to be saying nazism is solely left wing, which it isn't/wasn't.

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn Mac Cumhal:
Which is not exclusive to a Right-Wing governments. Left-wing governments also exploit irrational fears among the population for political gain. This has nothing to do with Left or Right.

It has been my experiance that Right-wing goverments are far more likely to shift debate to fears rather than issues. Every election I remember in my country the Conservative party has continually used a fear based stance. Labour didn't, until recently and they're barely a left-wing party anymore, and the Lib Dems, as far as I can remember never have.
Remember my above statement was a rebuttle to your argument about class systems as a political tool. That has been used by right-wing parties, at least in my own country, often from the other angle though. So I'd say that has nothing to do with left or right per-se.

The thing about the Nazi's is that they never really had a political ideology. They wanted power, and they wanted a White Aryan German empire. Their use of Left and Right ideologies were political tools to that end to gain support.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
Zen Buddhist to the Hotdog Vendor:
"Make me one with everything."

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, October 7, 2005 9:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Remember my above statement was a rebuttle to your argument about class systems as a political tool. That has been used by right-wing parties, at least in my own country, often from the other angle though. So I'd say that has nothing to do with left or right per-se.

The thing about the Nazi's is that they never really had a political ideology. They wanted power, and they wanted a White Aryan German empire. Their use of Left and Right ideologies were political tools to that end to gain support.

The social and economic practices of the German National Socialist party closely resemble the practices of any Socialist party, for a good reason. Nazism is a form of socialism. The means of production were directly controlled by the government. Land and capital could not be bought or sold or operated without the consent of the government, and profits were heavily taxed and control. This was called the “nationalization of business.” In many cases businesses were required to “rent” their capital from the state. This was called the “communalization of department stores.” That is pure socialism. So I don’t think that Nazism was a “centrist” philosophy. It was absolutely socialist; in fact, pretty damn close to communist.

Other aspects of Nazism were also distinctly Left-wing, such anti-Semitism. One of the goals of Marxism was the “emancipation of mankind from Jewry.” In fact, most of Hitler’s philosophies as documented in his speeches and books are drawn heavily from Marx and Engels.

Let’s look at the definition of Nazi from the Marriam-Websters dictionary:

Quote:
Nazism. the body of political and economic doctrines held and put into effect by the National Socialist German Workers' party in the Third German Reich including the totalitarian principle of government, state control of all industry, predominance of groups assumed to be racially superior, and supremacy of the führer.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/nazism

Note that the Marriam-Webster dictionary defines Nazism as “state control of all industry,” in other words, (as you put it earlier) “public ownership over the means of production.”

According to Joseph Geobbels, “We are socialists, because we see the social question as a matter of necessity and justice for the very existence of a state for our people, not a question of cheap pity or insulting sentimentality. The worker has a claim to a living standard that corresponds to what he produces." Circa 1932

According to Hitler, “We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." Circa 1927.

In fact, the economic and social practices of the Third Reich and the philophsies of those men who created it were consistent with Marx and the practices of other extreme socialist states.

-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

CHRISISALL

Friday, October 7, 2005 10:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Maybe you’re a closet conservative?

LOL, I'll plead guilty to some small degree....

Can you be a conservative conspiracy theorist?

Fence-hoppin' Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Friday, October 7, 2005 10:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn Mac Cumhal:
Left-wing, such anti-Semitism

You see you made some good points there Finn, but Anti-Semitism being a Left-wing policy? What about empire building? Mass murder? Are these Left-wing policies?

You see Finn your focusing on the Left-like policies of Nazism, and ignoring anything else. Nazism IS NOT a form of socialism, it is a form of FASCISM.

Quote:
There is a very close relationship between Nazism and Fascism. Since the term Nazism is normally used to refer to the ideology and policies of Nazi Germany alone, while Fascism is used in a broader sense, to refer to a wider political movement that exists or existed in many countries, Nazism is often classified as a particular version of Fascism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

Quote:
Despite the important differences from other right-wing ideologies, fascism is almost universally considered to be a part of "the right." This is somewhat parallel to the customary inclusion of Marxism-Leninism (and, in particular, that of the Stalinist Soviet Union and Maoist China) in "the left."
...
David Schoenbaum argued in his book Hitler's Social Revolution: Class and Status in Nazi Germany, 1933-1939 that Nazism contained certain revolutionary and socialist aspects (although more in rhetoric than in reality)
...
vigorous opposition to Communism and Social democracy was a founding and continuing tenet of National Socialism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_wing

Quote:
The means of production were directly controlled by the government. Land and capital could not be bought or sold or operated without the consent of the government, and profits were heavily taxed and control. This was called the “nationalization of business.” In many cases businesses were required to “rent” their capital from the state. This was called the “communalization of department stores.” That is pure socialism.

No, it is pure Totalitarianism. Totalitarianism is neither left nor right.
Facism is a Right-Wing totalitarian system. Private property is allowed but owners are not able to dispose of said property as they see fit so it is meaningless.
Communism is a Left-Wing totalitarian system. All property belongs to the state, there is no private property.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
Zen Buddhist to the Hotdog Vendor:
"Make me one with everything."

CITIZEN

Friday, October 7, 2005 11:05 PM

You wanna know what political ideology you have?
Try this:
http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html

I'm a Liberal Libertarian...
Apparently...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
Zen Buddhist to the Hotdog Vendor:
"Make me one with everything."

CHRISISALL

Friday, October 7, 2005 11:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
You wanna know what political ideology you have?
Try this:
http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html

I'm a Liberal Libertarian...
Apparently...

HEY!
I took the test, and apparently I'm a Liberal Libertarian Conspiracy Theorist!!

Whaddah ya know....Chrisisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, October 8, 2005 2:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
You see you made some good points there Finn, but Anti-Semitism being a Left-wing policy? What about empire building? Mass murder? Are these Left-wing policies?

Maybe. One would be hard-pressed to find many extremist socialist states that did not engage in at least mass murder. It’s typical Left-wing propaganda to believe that anti-Semitism exists only on the right. In fact, anti-Semitism was quite common on the Left in Europe, and many of the most prominent socialists, including Karl Marx, were anti-Semites, because they believed the Jews were advocates of capitalism. Karl Marx believed that the Jews were greedy and selfish and that they had zealously contributed to, what Marx called, a “general anti-social element.” He therefore believed that mankind needed to be freed from Judaism. Karl Marx was a Jew, and if Jewish Socialists held such negative generalized opinions of Jews, what do you supposed non-Jewish Socialists in 19th century Europe thought of Jews? Hitler’s anti-Semitism did not develop in a vacuum, and there is no reason to believe that it had to have come from the Right.

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
You see Finn your focusing on the Left-like policies of Nazism, and ignoring anything else. Nazism IS NOT a form of socialism, it is a form of FASCISM.

What am I ignoring? That some people what to call Nazism “right-wing?” I’m not ignoring that. I’m quite aware of it. But that doesn’t change the fact that Nazis implemented state control of the means of production, price controls, and profit controls, that they nationalized everything from business, transportation, healthcare, welfare, to “old-age insurance.” You can call it whatever you want. You can call it a “Purple People Eater,” if that floats your boat. But you cannot escape the fact, except through willful ignorance, that Nazism was consistent with the practices of extreme socialist states, such as Stalin’s Soviet Union. And you cannot escape the fact that the founders of Nazism, including Hitler, themselves called it Socialism, pleaded in class-warfare, quoted Marx and Engels, derided capitalists, and pandered to the working class, which is consistent with the practices of Left-wing politicians/pundits of extreme socialist states.

If socialism, as defined by the Marriam-Webster Dictionary is “governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods,” then it is indisputable that Nazism is indeed socialism, regardless of whatever else it may be. Nazism may not have been as far Left as Communism, but it was far Left-enough to be Socialism.

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
No, it is pure Totalitarianism. Totalitarianism is neither left nor right.
Facism is a Right-Wing totalitarian system. Private property is allowed but owners are not able to dispose of said property as they see fit so it is meaningless.
Communism is a Left-Wing totalitarian system. All property belongs to the state, there is no private property.

If “Totalitarianism is neither left nor right” then how can Communism be a Left-wing totalitarian system, and Fascism be a Right-Wing totalitarian system? You’ve not really thought this through very far, have you?

In fact, if a state controls all capital, then they essentially “own” it.

Yes, Nazism is a form of totalitarianism, AND it is also a form of Socialism.

Yes, the Nazis did hunt down and kill rival Leftists. So did the communists, when the Bolsheviks took control of Russia.

-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, October 8, 2005 2:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I'm a Liberal Libertarian...
Apparently...

I’m just a regular Libertarian.

-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

GREGGALLINSON

Saturday, October 8, 2005 7:09 AM

Originally posted by Hero:

Quote:
the crew of Serenity would have a lot more in common with Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush then with LBJ, Jimmy Carter, or any Democratic Senator/Presidential candidate.

Reagan? OK. But I really don't see how or why anyone on Serenity could find a single thing to admire about Dubya. Except maybe Jayne- they share a lot of the same thuggish mentality, and Dubya's almost Jayne's intellectual peer...

CITIZEN

Saturday, October 8, 2005 7:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn Mac Cumhal:
Maybe.

I see, Mass murder, empire building and anti-Semitism is left wing policy. Sooo, logically whenever these are shown by Right-wing states (even when it's more often than left-wing, like with empire building) it's merely the evil Leftists forcing their evil agenda on the good righteous right-wing. Thanks for clearing that up for me Finn.

Quote:
Karl Marx, were anti-Semites

You have either never actually read Marx, or didn't understand what you read, Finn.
I'll say it now before clarifying. Karl Mark WAS NOT an Anti-Semite.
I believe your mistake in thinking Marx was anti-Semitic is in his responses to his former mentor Bruno Bauer. Bauer's argument was essentially that Christianity was a more enlightened and advanced religion than Judaism. Marx rejected that as Anti-Semitic, and turned Bauer's language, and the rhetoric of anti-Semites, around to produce his own argument.
Marx noticed that Anti-Semitic arguments tend to be fundamentally anti-capitalist, and theorised that anti-Semites scapegoat Jews for capitalism, because they can't attack capitalism directly as non-Jews benefit from it.
Mark explains that he is not referring to real Jews, or to the Jewish religion, but is turning anti-Semitic rhetoric against it self by using 'Judaism' ironically as a metaphor for capitalism. He states that all Europeans in this sense are 'Jewish'.

Quote:
which is consistent with the practices of Left-wing politicians/pundits of extreme socialist states.

You know the funny thing about extreme right-wing and extreme left-wing politics is how similar they are in a lot of ways.

Quote:
Nazism may not have been as far Left as Communism, but it was far Left-enough to be Socialism.

I'll post it again. Yes, Nazism includes Left-Wing aspects, and it includes Right-Wing aspects. It is neither Left-Wing nor Right-Wing (or it is both). But I forget, Evil is left, good is right, yes?

Quote:
If “Totalitarianism is neither left nor right” then how can Communism be a Left-wing totalitarian system, and Fascism be a Right-Wing totalitarian system? You’ve not really thought this through very far, have you?

What are you talking about Finn? If Totalitarianism is neither Left nor Right it can operate within both left and right ideologies. You either didn't understand my post or didn't really think through your reply did you.

I don't think we're going to convince each-other Finn, so maybe we should back off and let the thread get back on-topic.

I will leave with something Interesting that I have noticed, that is worth thinking about. You say earlier on that your a Libertarian, a Right-Wing Ideology, and seem (stressing seem) to want to tar the Left with the brush of Totalitarianism and Dictatorship.
I'm apparently, and I agree really, a Liberal Libertarian, i.e. Left-Right. Not centrist, but believing in both Right-Wing and Left-Wing ideals (not all of them are mutually exclusive

). I see that extreme totalitarian and dictatorships grow from both sides. That there’s good and bad in both Right and Left wing politics. Just a little food for thought really.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
Zen Buddhist to the Hotdog Vendor:
"Make me one with everything."

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Post Serenity: Is the Fireflyverse even remotely pro-government anymore?*warning: spoilers*

Post Serenity: Is the Fireflyverse even remotely pro-government anymore?warning: spoilers