Discussion for the subject: What happened to my show, 'cause Serenity wasn't it?!

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 03:51
VIEWED: 33215
PAGE 8 of 11

PREV PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 NEXT PAGE

RODASH

Friday, October 7, 2005 8:10 PM

********SPOILERS CONTAINED HEREIN**************

Well said HK!! I agree with you on every level. Except, I still would not want to have seen Wash die - even after several seasons (or maybe I just cannot comprehend it at this moment in time).

For me, the show ended when Fox cancelled Firefly - end of story.

Thanks for your story; it helps to know that I am not the only one that felt this way about "Serenity".

Rodash

CHRISISALL

Friday, October 7, 2005 9:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tallgrrl:

We saw the actual happenings because...well...IT'S A MOVIE fer chrissakes.
Ease up a little, will ya's?

Agreed, Tallgrrl, just attempting to defend our BDM, my mistake is, it needs no defense.
HK's right on a lot of points, but that still doesn't keep it from being one of my favourite movies OF ALL TIME!!!

Chrisisall

ERASERHEAD

Friday, October 7, 2005 10:32 PM

(Long Post ahead. Just warning you now.)

The movie is completely an extension of the show. It was never intended to be exactly like the show.

I'm assuming that a majority of the people posting that they didn't like the movie were Firefly fans and have been following the events that led up to getting this movie made from day one.

I'm assuming you were the same as me and reading every little bit of information posted on this site or on some other Firefly site about the movie being made and the countless little blurbs that included quotes from Joss. From the moment it was announced that the movie was a go, Joss has said that the movie is not Firefly. Has everyone just forgotten about that or did people just choose not to listen to what Joss was saying. It was one of the first things he said in a statement that was posted somewhere on this site last year when the movie was green lit. There was also an interview where he was asked if the theme song to Firefly was going to be in the movie and Joss answered something to the effect of, "No. This is Serenity and not Firefly".

The people who are that upset by this movie are all upset because they assumed things going in to this movie that they shouldn't have assumed. We all know the saying about what happens when you assume. You weren't guaranteed Firefly as it was on TV. You weren't told that no characters would die. You weren't told that it wouldn't be darker than the show. You assumed all of these things, and in the end, it's up to you to get over them.

And the characters were all themselves. Mal was a bit darker, as we were told he would be. Book is off the ship. He was a big part of Mal's conscience. What happens when you take away Mal's conscience, the woman he obvioulsy feels something for and put him at a point where they are getting less work and less money than ever? You get the Mal we have in the movie. Simon was a little bit more sure of himself. Given what he's been through with the crew, that's not a stretch to think that he's tougher and a bit more jaded at this point. Seriously people, where's the 'out of character' stuff that everyone is talking about? I've seen the movie several times and I have yet to see what you are talking about.

In my opinion, this was a brilliant movie. I too was a little thrown when I first saw it back in May, but I am a fan of Joss Whedon's other shows too and should have known better as to not know what to expect with his stories. It's exactly why he has a fan base like he does. He knows how to make a story interesting and tense and likes to throw people for a loop. That's good writing. If you want stale, predictable, boring crap, watch some cheesy mega-budget Jerry Bruckheimer film or something like that. Especially being fans of Firefly the show, you should have already known that Joss Whedon is different. It was an original show that threw curve balls at you and it only had half a season of to do it. Why would you expect the movie not to do the same and shock and surprise you?

The only thing you should have in your mind when you see this movie is that it is a movie by Joss Whedon that is a spin off from Firefly. You get to spend 2 more hours than you ever should have had with these characters in this universe. I'm thankful for what we have gotten. We all should be. You don't have to like the movie. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that this movie is a gift and you should think of it as such. There are and were no guarantees that there ever will be or would be a sequel, especially back when Joss wrote this. He made a movie that offers up closure to a story where there was none. And at the same time, it was left with many, many possibilites and unanswered questions for a sequel if we are lucky enough to get one. If we don't get one, I'll be disappointed, but I'll be damned if I'm going to listen to a bunch of fans whine about the movie not being the same as the show. We were told it wouldn't be. We got a gift.

We should still be together in wanting this movie to do well whether you liked the movie or not. W

CHRISISALL

Friday, October 7, 2005 10:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Eraserhead:
I know I am not alone in my appreciation for what you did to get this movie made and the incredible love that is clearly visible in every frame of this movie. It's a great story with humor, action, drama, horror and some serious gut wrenching tension. The best movie I've seen in years and a completely worthy addition to the Firefly 'Verse. I hope you get to keep flying.

Yep.
Double yep.

Chrisisall, a yepman

MALI

Friday, October 7, 2005 10:53 PM

HK, I'm glad you put your stuff on the table, but damn, I couldn't disagree with you more. On many points, but I'll stick to one: Buffy as fan-driven? No character development?
Buffy's adjustment to college, then being a dropout and burger-flipper, learning to parent her sister, deal with her mom's death, ultimate sacrifice to save her sister, then learning to be human again, her dialogic relationship with Faith, her crazy relationship with Spike? and so on...
Anya's ongoing quest to learn to be human?
Willow's managing her powers after they spiral out of control? And especially after Tara's death?
Xander's ongoing struggle to be the less-capable good guy around a bunch of powerful women?

With all due respect, dude (and I'm betting you're a dude), maybe you need to look a lot closer, think about identifying with female characters, think about how you're defining "character driven." I would suggest that your definition of "fan-driven" is almost insulting.

More generally, now that I'm thinking about Buffy, a key comparison that emerged for me after the second viewing, was Wash's final heroic piloting that delivered the crew safely to ground / and Buffy's final monologue before her death that saved her sister. NOT meaningless, but martyrs, going out doing what they do best.

Best,
m.

p.s. if one more person writes that Zoe needed to cry like a girly-girl, i'm going to be ill....she is a SOLDIER, people!

~ Soupcatcher is a hottie ~

MALI

Friday, October 7, 2005 11:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by captaincdc:
...I think a lot of you are too hung up on what happened in the series. The movie is a stand alone. Joss made this movie so that non-fans can enjoy it along with the fans. I think some of the things we saw in the series were changed by Joss to make the movie more accessible to non-fans... (like) Simon breaking River out...

If you people would stop analyzing every detail to see if it meshes with the series you would probably enjoy the movie a whole lot more. And this notion that Joss was lazy and fell back into Buffy Mode is ridiculous.... To suggest that Joss just threw out some fan fiction is insulting, not to me but to Joss....

uh-huh. totally.

sorry to do an annoying re-post, but i think dccap makes a really really good point.

~ Soupcatcher is a hottie ~

HKCAVALIER

Saturday, October 8, 2005 12:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mali:
HK, I'm glad you put your stuff on the table, but damn, I couldn't disagree with you more. On many points, but I'll stick to one: Buffy as fan-driven? No character development? ...With all due respect, dude (and I'm betting you're a dude), maybe you need to look a lot closer, think about identifying with female characters, think about how you're defining "character driven." I would suggest that your definition of "fan-driven" is almost insulting.

Mali, look. It gives me no pleasure to dis this movie. I'm just trying to clarify my feelings when folks try to tell me what I meant. I knew Serenity was gonna be different, but that in no way prepared me for exactly how it ended up being different. I went in expecting brilliant storytelling, deft character work and a powerful experience and what I got was less than that. For me. You and Chrisisall and a lot of folk seem to have gotten all those things and more. I'm not trying to convince you of anything about the movie. Chrisisall started this thread to hear from folks like me. I'm grateful to him for that.

Please, disabuse yourself of any idea that my dislike of Buffy is evidence of gender-bias. Communicating over the internet is difficult enough without putting that wall up. If I have a bias, it's toward crying. I think everyone could afford to do a good deal more of it in their lives, men and women both. How 'bout Mal crying in Zoe's arms? That would be kinda great, actually...

I'm getting a lot of all or nothing arguments against my post today. I didn't like Simon's punching the Captain, I must therefore object to Simon hitting anyone and that's just not true to the series; I don't like the way Zoe questions Mal's decission not to let that poor man on the mule, I must therefore object to Zoe ever questioning the captain, etc. I don't like the way Serenity veered away from Firefly in the direction of what I don't like about Buffy, I must therefore believe Buffy has no character development.

Nope. Just deeply disappointed in the movie, Serenity, for the reasons I stated.

Quote:
p.s. if one more person writes that Zoe needed to cry like a girly-girl, i'm going to be ill....she is a SOLDIER, people!

I'm very sorry for having extended the life of that unfortunate image for everyone here. I read the suggestion just before writing my original post and felt it was the kind of scene in terms of tone and intimacy, that I was missing from the BDM. Upon reflection, as I said above, that specific image was not right, exactly for the reason you state. I do however, stick by my feeling that a terse exchange between Zoe and Mal in the cargo bay wrapped things up a little too neatly for my taste.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, October 8, 2005 12:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
You and Chrisisall and a lot of folk seem to gotten all those things and more.

I admit though, it's not without a lot of reading-into, and the bringin' of all the emotional baggage over from the show...

Porter Chrisisall

BLINKER

Saturday, October 8, 2005 3:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Fan fiction is not so much about compelling plot or coherent characters; it’s about putting already beloved characters, about whom we need no further information, in situations which will be uniquely harrowing or gratifying to fans. To non-fans of Firefly, a story about Jayne and Kaylee having sex would be pretty meaningless, but to the fan it can be anything from sublime to obscene, if not both--anything but meaningless. It’s hard to imagine a plot which a Jayne/Kaylee liaison would serve, and in the light of day, it ain’t exactly in character, but fans eat this stuff up nonetheless.

As I think about it, really, most popular television gets this way eventually, but then we call it “jumping the shark.” To a hardcore fan of “Fonzie” jumping the shark had intrinsic value, “Whoa, man! The Fonz just jumped a shark! I knew the Fonz was cool, but I didn’t know he was that cool!” We tend to see it as a result of the writers running out of fresh material, but I think it may be more a matter of the writers bowing to the fan drive and giving the people what they want.

I’ve never been fond of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and now I know why. Buffy is fan fiction. If you don’t love Buffy, the stories are pretty arbitrary and often silly. The grounded realities of characters, even the coherent metaphysics of the universe they inhabit, take a back seat to the gratification of seeing Buffy & co. in amazing situations. Buffy is a quip-fest; it’s just so cool to see our favorite characters say the coolest things.

It might surprise you to learn that Joss has not only diagnosed exactly this trend in his work, but admitted it unapologetically:

http://www.popmatters.com/film/reviews/s/serenity-2005.shtml

I am -- and always will be -- the biggest fanboy. I write from a fanboy place: what would it be great to see this character do?
—- Joss Whedon, New York Times (25 September 2005)

_________
Sliders: Gate Haven - http://slidersweb.net/blinker

MALI

Saturday, October 8, 2005 3:19 AM

Quote:
I'm getting a lot of all or nothing arguments against my post today..... I must therefore believe Buffy has no character development.

I hope I didn't come across all or nothing.... I'm enjoying this discussion very much. I do sympathize though--i think sometimes we have kneejerk defensive responses. This conversation--or a close facsimile--is going on in at at least three or four other threads, and I think they're all pretty good--more buzz is good buzz.

On the other hand, when you put stuff out there, you should be able to back it up:

Quote:
If you don’t love Buffy, the stories are pretty arbitrary and often silly. The grounded realities of characters, even the coherent metaphysics of the universe they inhabit, take a back seat to the gratification of seeing Buffy...

Ouch. I just think you're wrong here. Maybe an occasional episode, but generally? No way. Funny to me too--I generally cannot stand SciFi or Westerns or action movies, but Buffy and Firefly drew me in like a moth, precisely because of the character development. I do think you have a point about less character development in Serenity, and I like your rewrite of the Book death.... I'm just guessing Joss had to make some hard choices about what he could and couldn't include in a 2-hr movie.

Anyway, have a good weekend all.

~ Soupcatcher is a hottie ~

PREV PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 NEXT PAGE