Major Spoiler and I'm calling Joss out
POSTED BY: fireflygal
UPDATED: Friday, October 14, 2005 18:37
VIEWED: 62576
PAGE 22 of 23
Quote:
Originally posted by Quasarwinds:
If Book and Wash hadn't died the movie would have been just another flick. It's real and it's raw and that's why it's good. As for the mood of the crew, well watch the last part of the movie again
No main characters died in Firefly, was it just another show?
I did not say the mood of the crew was dark. What I meant was the movie is darker. Talking about Reavers in "Bushwacked" was as close as I ever wanted to get to them. Hearing that lady in the video scream and scream and scream was just horrid.
For the people saying "So-and-sos death was okay because he didn't add much to the show," please; we all have different favorite characters. That's far too subjective to be valid.
In response to arguments that these characters and stories belong to Joss Whedon and he can do what he wants with them—this is a fallacy of control, they do not belong to him.
As with any work of art in any medium, once the artist shares it with an audience, it belongs to each and every person there. They will all experience it in their own unique way, and that interpretation from their viewpoint belongs solely to them.
The museum guide may tell you that Grant Wood's painting "American Gothic" is a depiction of a farmer and his daughter, but they can not control that many people see it as a farmer and his wife instead.
Obviously, once it belongs to everybody, it cannot be written by everybody. That is why we have genres and formulas. Spider-Man cannot die, but the themes and premise of that character have been taken to heart so well that we continue to enjoy it.
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Yep, I read every single one. Including an earlier one of mine from a few weeks ago, where I said I couldn't wait to see what this was about. But I had a pretty good idea considering I was spoiled. I don't remember if I was spoiled about Wash and Book before the thread started. But I stayed away until I'd seen SERENITY because I didn't want to get spoiled further. But in my first post when I said I didn't know what it was all about, I wasn't merely referring to the topic--I was referring to the ever-elongating length of the thread and what discussions must be contained therein.
It's been an interesting read and it seems to me that the majority of those who chimed in for the past two days or so have been those in the pro-anti camp (those who agree with the idea that Joss shouldn't have done it). Whereas before then the majority was from the anti-anti camp (those who disagree with the idea that he shouldn't done it). Now if you look at the thread from the beginning the anti-anti far outweighs the pro-anti, but we p.a.'s are starting to come together.
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I would agree with the Sympathetic kill on a few conditions. One. It had something! Not just BAM! DEATH! If Zoe had shown any emotion, it would have been enough for me.
I will put myself out there that I had never even heard of Firefly before Serenity. I saw the movie first. Since then I have bought the DVD set and have been watching adimately.
I HATED the death scene. It ruined the movie for me, and in fact I find myself liking the series a hell of alot more and hate that I didnt discover it sooner.
From the perspective of a non fan upon seeing the movie, the entire thing made no sense. It was random and angering, because I felt I had invested so much in the characters up until then, that an instant kill was un-gratifying. It made more sense to off Simon or even River, infact I was expecting it. I don't think I even paid much attention to the rest of the movie.
I can't imagine what I would have felt had I been a fan of the show before hand.
-Krissy
Jayne: You don't pay me to talk pretty. Just because Kaylee gets lubed up over some big-city dandy...
Mal: Walk away from this table. Right now.
Simon: What do you pay him for?
Mal: What?
Simon: I was just wondering what his job is - on the ship.
Mal: Public relations.
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DOuble post! :)
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I joined just to reply to this thread.
I know Joss' style. I know the things he's pulled on Buffy and Angel. I was an avid Angel viewer. And I know sometimes his reasons are hard to see, and that sometimes he pulls shit that you don't expect, but can accept, because though it's blindsiding, there's something behind what he's doing. He's not just doing it to shock you, though that's A reason.
I've watched Firefly since it aired on FOX. I have the DVDs. I've converted people to Firefly through the DVDs. I avoided spoilers like the plague for the movie. I knew Joss' plot would be twisted and full of turns, and I wanted to go on the Joss Whedon ride once more. So it was ALL new to me plotline wise, other than what I saw on TV ads.
I understood Book's death. I was saddened he was killed off like that, and that he was cut off from the crew, that newbies would have no idea that he is not just some footnote character. But I could understand the need for it, and I could understand the build up afterwards, that it was Joss' push for Mal. I could also understand that his arc was done, since we can infer that he was once like the Alliance operative. We've learned what was a mystery about him, though I too would've enjoyed seeing it through his eyes, not through some new character's.
I don't understand Wash's death. Most of all I don't understand why it had to be him, if he wished for newbies and hardcore fans alike to feel for him, to feel for the rest of the crew, to lose their hope along with the crew. I did wonder if they would all die. I did wonder if more would die, would it be Zoe or Kaylee or Simon or River next. I was almost hoping they all would die, so that Wash's death would not be meaningless 'red shirt' crap.
If he meant for Wash's death to be jaring for us all, not just fans, he should have had a bigger part. Or he should have killed Simon or River or Mal. Heck Inara and Jayne had more fleshed out parts in the movie. Wash's death for a newbie would have been 'well fuck, one more down, seven more to go'.
For me, I didn't really SEE the rest of the movie. I sobbed. I can think of no bigger "FU!" to the fans. This death meant nearly nothing to a newbie, but infinitely much more to a fan.
If he had given me a REASON in THIS film, not it's maybe to be sequel, for his death; if he had built up Wash's character; if he had fleshed him out; if the movie had been about WASH instead of River; if Wash had made some sort of an arc, some sort of growth because of this film, it would not upset me so. But instead, he's the red shirt. The guy who dies to prove the situation is serious. Utterly meaningless emotionally to a newbie, because he was simply the plucky one liners, yet completely jaring to a fan, who knows he has much more potential, who loves him because it's been three years since we've seen him, and this is what we get. No character development, no growth, just death.
Zoe and how she may or may not grow in the may or may not happen sequel. There was no RESPECT paid to Wash's character. And no respect for the avid fan.
Joss can kill and not kill whoever he likes, but he's always had his reasons, always thought along sweeping character arcs. That's why I've loved him so. He does characters like no other. But what did he do for Wash in this movie? Nothing. No growth. We learn and understand nothing more about him because of the film. He simply pulled the trigger for shock value.
That is not the Joss I saw on Buffy and Angel.
I'm not sure if I want to see Serenity again. I'm not sure if I want to take friends to see it. They are better off believing Wash is still alive and growing as a person, as a character. I realize if the series had gone on, he might very well have been the first killed off, but somehow I think his death, even if it had been just as sudden, would have had an arc behind it. This was nothing. And that's my problem with it.
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I figured out why I'm so sad and depressed: for me, the point of Firefly was that this family, these 9 people, could get through anything. I already know as much as I want to know about families that break and have people horribly killed. And no, sorry, I don't buy for one second the "someone has to die" premise. Wash in particular was completely gratuitous, because it was completely unrealistic. Our BDHs would have known how close the Reaver ship was. Wash might have wanted to pause for a Zen moment, I believe that part, but Zoe would have hauled his ass out of that chair the second his job was done, and they would have been off running, halfway to the hold before the Reavers pierced the ship.
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Feel kinda funny after seeing it last night for the first. Still not sure how I feel about how it went... Guess I'm not alone with that.
Whadya reckon....
Wash is now a Reaver...
I know there was a tomb stone, but was he actually buried there or was it just a memorial?
Perhaps the Reavers brought him back from the brink, after all I guess they know how a body works better than most!
Me thinks that even Reavers need good pilots...
Good (if not slightly cheesey) theme for a sequal.. Serenity II.. The Search for Wash.
We could see how good a Doctor Simon is, and what the limits of Rivers powers really are.
Not meanin to be disrespectful, just in a hurry to get my idea across is all.
What was that....?
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Quote:
Originally posted by scifigirl:
Hello! This is my first post. :) I know I am a little late, but I wanted to add my two cents.
I was so glad to read your comments, Fireflygal. I posted about who I angry I was about Wash and Book being killed on another Firefly fan site, and I got chewed out for it!!! So I was actually happy to met someone else who was upset about this.
To tell you the truth, I was dissapointed about the whole movie. The movie was not nearly as good as I was hoping it would it be. It was just a combination of a lot of little things (besides the killings, I mean) that bugged me. I thought the plot line was a little weak. I mean, the origin of the Reavers was kind of interesting; but it seemed a little lame that that was why the Alliance tried so hard to get River. I was like, 'Is that all?' I don't know what I was expecting, but I thought it would be a little more dramatic than that.
But I totally agree with you about being upset about the killings!! Why in the verse did Joss kill off Wash??!!! I can see killing off the Book, he never really did much for the show; although I was very dissapointed that you never really found out his secret. But his death didn't bother me much. But Wash??? He was the best character of the whole show!! I loved him. He was the innocent comedy that made Firelfy hillarious. And then, to add innsult ot injury, Wash didn't even get the basic dieing farwell. I think that is what bothered me the most. Shepard Book got his tearful goodbye in; why didn't Wash? He didn't even get to say good-bye to Zoe! He was just dead!
I will admit, Wash's death was the last thing I expected. And for the first time in a long, long time, I gasped out loud during a movie. So if Joss was going for the shock value, he got it. He also got tears.
For me, if they do make a sequal, it just won't be the same without Wash. He was part of the family.
So anyway, that is what I think. Thanks for letting me vent!!! :)
Welcome to the "Joss took the sky" camp, pull up a box of Kleenex and set a spell and vent away... Yeah, I got hammered in this post too but I stand my ground. Like Mal said May have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one. I'll tell you what though, I wish I had the time to go back over this post cause I'm betting the sides have just about evened up. Won't change nothin' in the 'Verse but at least we know many more of us stand together
Remember though, we still need to support the movie, the cast and Universal. Let's see what Joss can do if he has 2 more movies.
I aim to misbehave!
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Quote:
Originally posted by kipli:
I joined just to reply to this thread.
I'm not sure if I want to see Serenity again. I'm not sure if I want to take friends to see it. They are better off believing Wash is still alive and growing as a person, as a character. I realize if the series had gone on, he might very well have been the first killed off, but somehow I think his death, even if it had been just as sudden, would have had an arc behind it. This was nothing. And that's my problem with it.
Hi Kipli
We're definitely in agreement about the deaths but the one thing throughout this post that I have tried to do is mention that even though I don't like what happened I will continue to support the cast and Universal by seeing the movie again and again. It was partly our faith that brought Serenity to the screen, we can't turn our back on her just because Joss wrote something we don't like. Well, we can but it's not right.
Your friends will find out sooner or later about the deaths, even if they wait for the DVD. Please support the movie, let's see what Joss can do with #2 but I'm sayin' all bets are off if he kills another crew member in the next one!! Joss says he checks the boards yet he hasn't answered to the fans in THIS post and he certainly doesn't have to but I would figure he might have something to say even if it's his trademark sarcasm and tangential wit.
I aim to misbehave!
Firefly items:
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This afternoon I felt like not working on my stuff so I put in disk 1 of the DVD's. And the problems that I saw in the movie were oh so apparent.
The characters were pretty much 1 dimensional. I mean, how many times did Nathon get told, look angry in this scene. It was pretty much every one. I can hear Joss know saying, "Ok, in this scene Mal will get angry at x [again]". Or "In this scene, Mal will run away [again]." Weak.
As was mentioned prior (some other thread perhaps), Jayne didn't complain about not getting payed, etc. Can't remember one time. He wasn't really Jayne at all.
Wash, as mentioned above, was just a one liner.
Zoe was... Well, she didn't make enough of an impression on me in the movie to remember.
Inara. If I were Morena, I'd be pissed about the whole thing.
Kaylee, though the most like the original character, there were numerous differences ie she didn't look like she enjoyed a hamburger from time to time like Joss wanted her to look for the series.
Book, as mentioned above, was religated to a footnote.
Simon and River, both different.
Basically, all characters are shadows of there original selves. Even then, they are all different enough to not really be considered the same characters. Pisses me off.
And what the hell was about Mr. Universe. Mr. convenient for the trite ending that had no basis to how things were done in the show, more like it.
Sure I exepect differences, but seriously. Am I supposed to swollow this?
And now for "The Operative." Should the best actor, best developed character, in the movie, be the new big bad around for just that one movie? What the hell was that about?
And why didn't he kill himself at the end? Die on his own sword for his own failures as it were. Inconsistant.
But, what pisses me off the most, is the dialog. While watching the series today, in every scene, there was laughing, clever witty remarks, possibly tension of some sort, etc. Every scene!
It's as though in the series, everything was put together with purpose. Every word/remark/action/etc thought out to make the scene work and put together in a way that as a whole, the show flowed smooth. This movie had no such thing.
The scenes seemed to be slapped together. The laughing was few and far between. The dialog was insulting relative to Joss' set standards in the series.
For any fan of the series (like me), I gather that this movie was a big disappointment.
I also gather that the FF world will schism. Those "purists" who will stick with the show and the - enter whatever name you want to call yourselves here - who agree with and/or accept the movie (even though it rewrites history somewhat).
Anyway, that's my view on the whole thing.
----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki
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