Major Spoiler and I'm calling Joss out
POSTED BY: fireflygal
UPDATED: Friday, October 14, 2005 18:37
VIEWED: 62576
PAGE 21 of 23
Quote:
Originally posted by LadyShelley:
I think this is where some of the hurt and anger may be coming from: we're dependent on a sequel for the catharsis of seeing how Zoe and the crew deals with Wash, and to a lesser extent Book, dying. We're dependent on the production company giving us permission so to speak to see the next chapter. If Firefly were still on the air, this probably would have been the season two finale, but we would know that in season three we'd see more about how teh characters moved on and dealt with the pain, and then we could as well(I realize this still assumes a bigger power is involved, but let's also assume Firefly was a huge hit by now and the network would never think of canceling until the story was done.)
Right now we have to wait probably two more years to find out what happens next. That's a lot of time for nail biting and worry about if it will get made at all.
Lady Shelley
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.redhawke.org]
That's valid. And I'll always be a little sad if this is it for Firefly--I want the payoff for Wash's death. That's why I'm still supporting it, in hopes there'll be a sequel. :/
--Kat
http://home.comcast.net/~aethercitystudios/index.html
"I'm so hip I can't see over my pelvis!"
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I'm new here but I've read every single post in this thread, how's that for a rite of passage? I'm in the "You stole my sky" camp as well.
My hope for the movie was that it be successful enough to give us more Firefly. But now, regardless of whether or not it is that successful, it is not what I fell in love with: a band of misfits finding home and family with each other on Serenity, more a state of mind than the name of a ship. Instead, it is darker and it is missing loved members of the crew.
The two deaths are well done in a technical sense. Book was the typical "Hollywood" death with a speech, but the cliche is used to catch us off guard. We figure we have been through the token death, and bam, we are hit with Wash. It worked extremely well in providing peril in the finale—I was sure everyone was going to die. But it fails after that with the fight between Mal and The Operative.
We've established realistic danger, but the final fight does not follow realist rules. The shot in the back was fine since the Alliance seems to prefer stun guns (see "Ariel"), but as for being run through with a sword, I figured Mal was done. Especially since he removed the sword, which can do just as much damage as when it entered. The way he kept going after that was annoying since it had previously been established that the danger was real.
Straddling both fences like that is what makes me mad. Add to it the love and time spent with those characters and it downright blows.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xepherys:
I really don't understand why you are so banged up by this fireflygal. Admittedly, I am a new Firefly fan. Serentity (the movie) was my first exposure and frankly, I'm hooked. But I've been a Joss Whedon fan for along time. I've been a fan of Buffy since Day 1. I know this is a shock to some of you who have been here a while, but there was a Joss before there was Firefly.
Throught the seven very successful seasons of Buffy, several beloved characters died. Heck, Buffy died twice (though she came back). Miss Calendar. Tara (which was heart wrenching). But it made the story a story.
I also enjoy reading fantasy genre books, mostly set in the D&D realms (Forgotten Relams or DragonLance). I love R.A. Salvatore's writing, but the fact that Drizzt never ever dies makes it SO unbelievable. Yes, I know... it's fiction... FANTASY fiction at that. I'd still like a feeling of excitement and intrigue. Sadly, the death of a major character is sometimes the best way to do this.
As a final note... Joss doesn't owe you anything. Joss' style of writing and bringing his characters to life is why I (and others) love his work. He owes you no more than Lucas owes us a reason for that damned Jar Jar. It is what it is...
You pretty much answered your own question, Xepherys. You're a newbie, not a Joss newbie but a Firefly newbie. I spent 3 years with all the other Browncoats trying to keep the whole crew flying. Then we get the movie and Joss takes 2 away.
And yes, Browncoats are well aware of Buffy and Angel. I guess maybe some of us hoped he wouldn't fall into his usual modus operendi of killing main characters. I'd have felt better (I think) had he waited for the 2nd movie but I know he wasn't writing with sequels in mind.
Sure, he owes me no explanation but funny thing about being a reporter (which I am part time) we're allowed to ask the tough questions and expect answers to give to the public. If I were able to interview Joss then I would expect answers because many Browncoats want the answers to the same questions that I do. And I don't even WANT to know what Lucas was thinking with Jar Jar
I believe this seems to be a matter of the folks that go to movies to escape reality and like happy endings and you other people
I'm really impressed with the intelligence displayed in these posts and the depth of the involvement and the civility! It's very enjoyable reading.I aim to misbehave!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greeneo:
I'm new here but I've read every single post in this thread, how's that for a rite of passage? I'm in the "You stole my sky" camp as well.
My hope for the movie was that it be successful enough to give us more Firefly. But now, regardless of whether or not it is that successful, it is not what I fell in love with: a band of misfits finding home and family with each other on Serenity, more a state of mind than the name of a ship. Instead, it is darker and it is missing loved members of the crew.
The two deaths are well done in a technical sense. Book was the typical "Hollywood" death with a speech, but the cliche is used to catch us off guard. We figure we have been through the token death, and bam, we are hit with Wash. It worked extremely well in providing peril in the finale—I was sure everyone was going to die. But it fails after that with the fight between Mal and The Operative.
We've established realistic danger, but the final fight does not follow realist rules. The shot in the back was fine since the Alliance seems to prefer stun guns (see "Ariel"), but as for being run through with a sword, I figured Mal was done. Especially since he removed the sword, which can do just as much damage as when it entered. The way he kept going after that was annoying since it had previously been established that the danger was real.
Straddling both fences like that is what makes me mad. Add to it the love and time spent with those characters and it downright blows.
Welcome to FFN Greeneo and the "you stole my sky" camp and many pats on the back for reading every post on this thread. Me thinks you have too much time on your hands
All the "little" stuff like the sword, the incense/flash bomb going off at just the right moment, the nerve cluster being moved I can run with that stuff but the deaths was just plain not shiny.
I aim to misbehave!
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Quote:
My hope for the movie was that it be successful enough to give us more Firefly. But now, regardless of whether or not it is that successful, it is not what I fell in love with: a band of misfits finding home and family with each other on Serenity, more a state of mind than the name of a ship. Instead, it is darker and it is missing loved members of the crew.
"Darker and missing the loved members of the crew." Hmm. Let me enlighten you a little bit. Firstoff, every single person on this site is a dedicated Firefly Fan and probably misses Book and Wash as much as you do. But have you seen the Sci-Fi of today? Solid Heroes who always win in the end and make a happy ending for all? If Book and Wash hadn't died the movie would have been just another flick. It's real and it's raw and that's why it's good. As for the mood of the crew, well watch the last part of the movie again. You see Kaylee fixing parts of Serenity's hull, Inara painting on the logo, River rewiring the...wiring. The music and tone suggests they are getting back to their lives. You mourn and you remember. The crew's mood was anything but dark. One last thing. At the end? I can't remember quote exactly but here goes
Mal: Do you think she'll hold together?
Zoe: She's pretty torn up, but she'll fly true.
Mal: Good. Make sure everything is secure.
In case you didn't realize, they're not just talking about Serenity.
I swallowed a bug.
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Just read it now. Too many posts, so sorry if I'm repeating anything.
Book dieing. Pisses me off, but Joss had a point. I heard (can't remember where) that the reasoning was that Book isn't a character that would lend to a movie that has to be all big and shiny and such. His character is just too low key. Fine for a TV series where you can develope slowly, but not for movie. Then again, that's just what I hear.
IMO, Joss could've just put him out to pasture. That way, he would be there if Joss needed him again.
As for Wash. Joss you 
'n hole. It was completely unecessary.
Quite frankly, I'm actually disappointed in the movie as a whole.
While I was watching it, I was thinking, why am I seeing such bad acting? These are characters that I know and I know these guys can act with the best of them. Why so poor? Is it that they hadn't played these characters in such a long time that they had to get there bearings again?
Then as I watched more, it was clear that it wasn't really the actors. It was that the actors were struggling with the poor dialog. It took me a while to notice it as there was enough Joss stuff mixed in to confuse. But in general, the writting was rediculous (relative to Joss standards).
Remember the scene when Simon walked up to Mal and told him how angry he was? Remember Simon say something like "If I was angry my eyes would be wider" or some such.
Completely out of character. Similarly with Mal's reaction.
Maybe Joss should've spent a little more time writting the damn thing. Then maybe we would've gotten the clever dialog that we all love.
Joss, you let me down. If you should be so lucky to get a second chance, I expect you to rise to the standards that you've set in the past. Not lowball us in the nethers with a piece of go-se.
----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki
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Well finally! I've been waiting to read this thread since it first posted and I now I've finished it.
I'm in the "He shouldn't have done it" camp.
Book is merely The Character Who Exists To Die So His Death Can Motivate the Main Character To Do What He Has To Do. To relegate the character of Book to this hackneyed cliche is unconscionable.
I'm not accepting of either death, but I'm more accepting of Wash's (in terms of the story) than Book's. I'm less accepting of Wash's in terms of characters I want to see die.
As FFG has said before I find it hard to believe there would have been a post complaining about no deaths if that had been the case.
I (due to my own stupidity) was spoiled on these deaths before the movie so I knew no other characters were going to buy it. So I'll never know if Wash's death would have made be feel like "Oh no, now anybody could die" and increased my anxiety in the end that someone else might kick it. Most likely my reaction probably would have been something along the lines of what Joey LaMotta said to his brother Jake in RAGING BULL: "So just kill people whydonchya?! Go ahead! Kill Book, kill Wash, kill fuckin' everybody, whydonchya! Just go around and kill people, ya fat fuck"! Although I probably wouldn't call Joss a "fat fuck". But Joey LaMotta would.
I would have accepted the deaths of these characters (assuming they had been earned) if they had happened during the course of the show. The same if it had happened in a sequel. But in the first movie? We've been waiting three years to see these characters again. Don't slap us in face by killing some of them off.
I don't agree with the idea that Wash's death was made significant by the this-proves-something-was-at-stake argument. I do agree that clearly his death informs the character of Zoe and in a sequel it will serve to develop Zoe's character. But if we don't get that sequel then it really was all for naught (IMHO).
If Joss wanted to impress me by killing off a character then he should've killed off Mal. Although, since Joss doesn't know I exist-- actually that's not true, I asked him a question at Comic-Con in 2003, but I'm willing to bet he doesn't remember me ; ) --I seriously doubt he was trying to impress me.
I'm also with those who believe that the Operative's story is Book's backstory. But if true, I would've rather learned that through Book rather than another character, thankyouveddymuch.
I do think that overall this was a good movie. Not great, not very good, just good. The pacing is terrific and about 98% of the humor works very well. And in my own personal opinion the sun of SERENITY shone most brightly on Zoe/Gina.
But I must say that I was disappointed. Funny thing, I saw it Friday night alone, and had had this mental list of things I thought didn't work. Then I saw it with friends on Saturday (all of whom liked it and 7 out of the 10 of us had no knowledge of FIREFLY) and I enjoyed it more. But then after that, I was giving my friend a ride home and I was explaining to him some of the things I thought didn't work. And I got myself all pissed off all over again (not about Wash and Book--other stuff).
I don't think Joss OWES us an explanation for whacking Book and Wash, but I sure would like to hear it. If the reason is because newbies had to know he means business when he puts his characters in danger, then I would say this was a miscalculation on his part because the people these killings had the least affect on were newbies. Of course, I can't know that for a fact, but I think it's a reasonable assumption.
Bottom line, if there's a sequel I will go see it. I will look forward to WONDER WOMAN, GONERS, ASTONISHING X-MEN and anything else Joss does in the future.
Until then those of us who think Joss shouldn't have done it will really have to...
Keep flying.
So long, folks!
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It's just too funny... Using the same old plot device on killing off characters just to proof how serious the situation is... Idiotic and Tiresome isn't it, and at least the 8th times? Might as well change Wash's name to "Mr. Red Shirt", and Book's name to the more apropro "Crewmen #6"...
Good Grief...
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Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
Well finally! I've been waiting to read this thread since it first posted and I now I've finished it.
I'm in the "He shouldn't have done it" camp.
Book is merely The Character Who Exists To Die So His Death Can Motivate the Main Character To Do What He Has To Do. To relegate the character of Book to this hackneyed cliche is unconscionable.
I'm not accepting of either death, but I'm more accepting of Wash's (in terms of the story) than Book's. I'm less accepting of Wash's in terms of characters I want to see die.
As FFG has said before I find it hard to believe there would have been a post complaining about no deaths if that had been the case.
I (due to my own stupidity) was spoiled on these deaths before the movie so I knew no other characters were going to buy it. So I'll never know if Wash's death would have made be feel like "Oh no, now anybody could die" and increased my anxiety in the end that someone else might kick it. Most likely my reaction probably would have been something along the lines of what Joey LaMotta said to his brother Jake in RAGING BULL: "So just kill people whydonchya?! Go ahead! Kill Book, kill Wash, kill fuckin' everybody, whydonchya! Just go around and kill people, ya fat fuck"! Although I probably wouldn't call Joss a "fat fuck". But Joey LaMotta would.
I would have accepted the deaths of these characters (assuming they had been earned) if they had happened during the course of the show. The same if it had happened in a sequel. But in the first movie? We've been waiting three years to see these characters again. Don't slap us in face by killing some of them off.
I don't agree with the idea that Wash's death was made significant by the this-proves-something-was-at-stake argument. I do agree that clearly his death informs the character of Zoe and in a sequel it will serve to develop Zoe's character. But if we don't get that sequel then it really was all for naught (IMHO).
If Joss wanted to impress me by killing off a character then he should've killed off Mal. Although, since Joss doesn't know I exist-- actually that's not true, I asked him a question at Comic-Con in 2003, but I'm willing to bet he doesn't remember me ; ) --I seriously doubt he was trying to impress me.
I'm also with those who believe that the Operative's story is Book's backstory. But if true, I would've rather learned that through Book rather than another character, thankyouveddymuch.
I do think that overall this was a good movie. Not great, not very good, just good. The pacing is terrific and about 98% of the humor works very well. And in my own personal opinion the sun of SERENITY shone most brightly on Zoe/Gina.
But I must say that I was disappointed. Funny thing, I saw it Friday night alone, and had had this mental list of things I thought didn't work. Then I saw it with friends on Saturday (all of whom liked it and 7 out of the 10 of us had no knowledge of FIREFLY) and I enjoyed it more. But then after that, I was giving my friend a ride home and I was explaining to him some of the things I thought didn't work. And I got myself all pissed off all over again (not about Wash and Book--other stuff).
I don't think Joss OWES us an explanation for whacking Book and Wash, but I sure would like to hear it. If the reason is because newbies had to know he means business when he puts his characters in danger, then I would say this was a miscalculation on his part because the people these killings had the least affect on were newbies. Of course, I can't know that for a fact, but I think it's a reasonable assumption.
Bottom line, if there's a sequel I will go see it. I will look forward to WONDER WOMAN, GONERS, ASTONISHING X-MEN and anything else Joss does in the future.
Until then those of us who think Joss shouldn't have done it will really have to...
Keep flying.
So long, folks!
Ah, welcome Batmarlowe to the "You took the sky from us" camp. Except for a few punches (verbal) thrown, it's a mighty fin
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Hello! This is my first post. :) I know I am a little late, but I wanted to add my two cents.
I was so glad to read your comments, Fireflygal. I posted about who I angry I was about Wash and Book being killed on another Firefly fan site, and I got chewed out for it!!! So I was actually happy to met someone else who was upset about this.
To tell you the truth, I was dissapointed about the whole movie. The movie was not nearly as good as I was hoping it would it be. It was just a combination of a lot of little things (besides the killings, I mean) that bugged me. I thought the plot line was a little weak. I mean, the origin of the Reavers was kind of interesting; but it seemed a little lame that that was why the Alliance tried so hard to get River. I was like, 'Is that all?' I don't know what I was expecting, but I thought it would be a little more dramatic than that.
But I totally agree with you about being upset about the killings!! Why in the verse did Joss kill off Wash??!!! I can see killing off the Book, he never really did much for the show; although I was very dissapointed that you never really found out his secret. But his death didn't bother me much. But Wash??? He was the best character of the whole show!! I loved him. He was the innocent comedy that made Firelfy hillarious. And then, to add innsult ot injury, Wash didn't even get the basic dieing farwell. I think that is what bothered me the most. Shepard Book got his tearful goodbye in; why didn't Wash? He didn't even get to say good-bye to Zoe! He was just dead!
I will admit, Wash's death was the last thing I expected. And for the first time in a long, long time, I gasped out loud during a movie. So if Joss was going for the shock value, he got it. He also got tears.
For me, if they do make a sequal, it just won't be the same without Wash. He was part of the family.
So anyway, that is what I think. Thanks for letting me vent!!! :)
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