Conceal-Carry Passes Handgun Bill in Minnesota
POSTED BY: Channain
UPDATED: Friday, January 23, 2004 19:20
VIEWED: 24375
PAGE 10 of 11
Hey, other than some senseless violence between Maniac and myself, totally consensual I might add, and a bit of threatened violence between me and Wulfhawk, totally a regional thing, we've been mostly well-behaved.
To get serious for a moment- The matter of statistics. Now, the old canard about lies, damn lies, and damn statistics has been run into the ground. Mostly, it's a matter of not working through them and understanding them. BUT. I don't like framing moral issues in terms of statistics. Once you go that direction, you're basically doing a cost/benefit analysis. The way I look at it, weapons are one of the three main elements of self-determination. Guns, money, and wheels, to my way of thinking. With those three, I can be five hundred miles away in eight hours or so, get myself dinner and a room, and keep my money safe from undesired donations. When a buddy of mine's wife died a while back, that's pretty much the formula I followed to get over to him. Take the utopian world of the 'progressive', I'd be spending my tokens on some Amtrak affair that makes United Airlines look efficient, get mugged enroute, and arrive three days after he threw himself off the bridge.
Live free or die, way I look at it.
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Now if everyone will excuse me, I gotta get back to bonking noggins with Maniac. That boy has got one HARD head. Damn.
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Quote:
-Infallible Logic
Maybe I didn't mention my background in Philosophy either. Ya'll ain't gettin' nothin' by this gun nut.
S1: "NOT All who own guns, commit murder with guns." T
S2: "There does not exist one person or specific group of people who commit ALL of the set of 'murders with firearms' " T
Conclusion: "gunshot deaths are caused by the entire gun-carrying population, in general."
Your conclusion does not follow from your arguments. If you like I'll present your arguments and conclusion from those arguments to the professor of logic at the University of Puget Sound, who's a good friend of mine.
-Morgan
If you do send it to him, quote the whole thing m'kay? You took right from the middle of what I was saying -
"Only a gun can cause death by gunshot.
If you don't have a gun, you can't kill anybody by gunshot.
I am gonna go a little further, but my argument will no longer be completely sound if you apply these thoughts to the others I just mentioned."
- then I proposed an already admittedly unsound argument.
...and I don't think I should argue philosophy with you until you pronounce me insane. I have learned a very important lesson from philosophy and logic and reason. You can use them to prove anything you want, even contradictory statements. It is dangerous to rely only on them if you wish to arrive at the truth.
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Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
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This is what happens when people are allowed to buy guns!!
Rated R
"Guns"
14 MB - Quicktime
http://craptv.com/shorts/guns.mov
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There are some people in the wide world who are vehemently opposed to guns or any other sort of legal weapon ownership.
But I don't know anyone who, when confronted with deadly violence, would not wish for a chance to escape it.
Even if it was only one chance in a thousand.
Even if that chance was a gun.
On the subject of more guns = more gun violence...
If everyone might be carrying a gun, the rate of gun violence would spike momentarily. This is called the Learning Curve.
After that, criminals get less bold, and ordinary citizens become a bit more tolerant and polite. The wackos who beat the shit out of people due to road rage... they're likely to get weeded out early on.
Consequences breed a better society.
I am a CCW holder in Florida. I don't carry all the time, but I cherish the fact that I can.
And the bad guys... out there in the wide world... they know I can.
Maybe there's one chance in a thousand that gun will come in handy. Maybe there's one chance in a thousand I can draw it out and make use of it in time.
I'll take those odds. After all, I bet on the lottery, and I don't stand under trees when it rains.
--Anthony
"Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who didn't." - Ben Franklin
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There are some people in the wide world who are vehemently opposed to guns or any other sort of legal weapon ownership.
But I don't know anyone who, when confronted with deadly violence, would not wish for a chance to escape it.
Even if it was only one chance in a thousand.
Even if that chance was a gun.
On the subject of more guns = more gun violence...
If everyone might be carrying a gun, the rate of gun violence would spike momentarily. This is called the Learning Curve.
After that, criminals get less bold, and ordinary citizens become a bit more tolerant and polite. The wackos who beat the shit out of people due to road rage... they're likely to get weeded out early on.
Consequences breed a better society.
I am a CCW holder in Florida. I don't carry all the time, but I cherish the fact that I can.
And the bad guys... out there in the wide world... they know I can.
Maybe there's one chance in a thousand that gun will come in handy. Maybe there's one chance in a thousand I can draw it out and make use of it in time.
I'll take those odds. After all, I bet on the lottery, and I don't stand under trees when it rains.
--Anthony
"Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who didn't." - Ben Franklin
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Not only that, but didn't Florida have a rash of attacks on tourists, because the criminals knew the tourists did not carry? Why go against a local when they might be armed, one could get hurt doing that?
I like the way Florida dealt with the situation, start issuing temporary permits to tourists.
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Great thread folks just read the whole thing. Way better than most political sites I visit. It seems interesting that almost everyone who posted here is pro-gun to a greater or lesser extent wich suggests to me that authoritarian leftists don't like Firefly and are thus under represented here,this of cource is fine by me.
Special thanks to Caesari for the history lesson
it's not the type of thing you get to here too often these days. Sadly enough history in this country when it's taught at all is usually sort of an elaboration on Michael Moore's cartoon. In fact if you were a history professor at many schools today and said what you said you'd probably be run off campus on a rail.
And thanks Hardware for the great links printed out a copy of The Bill of Rights and I recommend anyone a little fuzzy on what Amendment is wich do the same.
As for you Succatash or anyone who even for a second thinks Michael Moore is anything other than a propaganda artist of the worst sort I'm going to share some facts about the lies in Bowling for Columbine.
First off the first time you see Charleton Heston speak he uses not one not two but seven edits to make him sound like he said someting wich he never said. This is not how an honest man operates but thats Micheal Moore.
Second when Micheal Moore goes to the "missle factory" in Littleton and talks about trucks driving through town in the middle of the night with "pentagon payloads" he lies twice. First off that Lockheed Martin plant isn't a missle factory it's a plant that makes rockets for launching satellites. And when he talks about them being driven through town with "pentagon payloads" this is also a lie since they have no payloads when they leave the plant pentagon or otherwise.
Third the whole Klan and the N.R.A. thing about how they have always secretly worked together is a load of bull. First off the N.R.A. was founded by Union soldiers. The eighth president of the N.R.A. was Ulysess S. Grant. Back before being president of the N.R.A. he was president of the United States. As the U.S. president he signed into law The Federal Ku Klux Klan Act and Enforcement Act. This empowered the president to use troops to suppress the Klan. His leadership led to over 5000 arrests.
And finally during the civil rights era the N.R.A. had all black southern chapters.
You know I used to be a big fan of Michael Moore
until I saw Bowling for Columbine and what I saw didn't jibe with my understanding of reality I started asking questions and found out he's a total goreram liar. And if he full of it in this movie he's full of it in his other stuff too wich means I wasted a lot of money over the years on his BS nearly two hundred dollars by my reconing. Wich is why he's not a very popular person with me.
Anyway if anyones interested in finding out more about whats wrong with Mr.Moore's "documentary" check out Truth about Bowling for Columbine
I'd post a link but I'm not good with high tech gizmos just drop it in a search engine and you'll get there.
Also of interest www.moorelies.com
Also you might be interested in checking out Michael Moore Hates America
Michael Moore Hates America is a documentary that is currently being made that largely focuses on the fat man himself and the quest to sit down with Mr.Moore to convince him to return the Oscar for Best Documentary since bowling isn't a documentary at all.
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Great thread folks just read the whole thing. Way better than most political sites I visit. It seems interesting that almost everyone who posted here is pro-gun to a greater or lesser extent wich suggests to me that authoritarian leftists don't like Firefly and are thus under represented here,this of cource is fine by me.
Special thanks to Caesari for the history lesson
it's not the type of thing you get to here too often these days. Sadly enough history in this country when it's taught at all is usually sort of an elaboration on Michael Moore's cartoon. In fact if you were a history professor at many schools today and said what you said you'd probably be run off campus on a rail.
And thanks Hardware for the great links printed out a copy of The Bill of Rights and I recommend anyone a little fuzzy on what Amendment is wich do the same.
As for you Succatash or anyone who even for a second thinks Michael Moore is anything other than a propaganda artist of the worst sort I'm going to share some facts about the lies in Bowling for Columbine.
First off the first time you see Charleton Heston speak he uses not one not two but seven edits to make him sound like he said someting wich he never said. This is not how an honest man operates but thats Micheal Moore.
Second when Micheal Moore goes to the "missle factory" in Littleton and talks about trucks driving through town in the middle of the night with "pentagon payloads" he lies twice. First off that Lockheed Martin plant isn't a missle factory it's a plant that makes rockets for launching satellites. And when he talks about them being driven through town with "pentagon payloads" this is also a lie since they have no payloads when they leave the plant pentagon or otherwise.
Third the whole Klan and the N.R.A. thing about how they have always secretly worked together is a load of bull. First off the N.R.A. was founded by Union soldiers. The eighth president of the N.R.A. was Ulysess S. Grant. Back before being president of the N.R.A. he was president of the United States. As the U.S. president he signed into law The Federal Ku Klux Klan Act and Enforcement Act. This empowered the president to use troops to suppress the Klan. His leadership led to over 5000 arrests.
And finally during the civil rights era the N.R.A. had all black southern chapters.
You know I used to be a big fan of Michael Moore
until I saw Bowling for Columbine and what I saw didn't jibe with my understanding of reality I started asking questions and found out he's a total goreram liar. And if he full of it in this movie he's full of it in his other stuff too wich means I wasted a lot of money over the years on his BS nearly two hundred dollars by my reconing. Wich is why he's not a very popular person with me.
Anyway if anyones interested in finding out more about whats wrong with Mr.Moore's "documentary" check out Truth about Bowling for Columbine
I'd post a link but I'm not good with high tech gizmos just drop it in a search engine and you'll get there.
Also of interest www.moorelies.com
Also you might be interested in checking out Michael Moore Hates America
Michael Moore Hates America is a documentary that is currently being made that largely focuses on the fat man himself and the quest to sit down with Mr.Moore to convince him to return the Oscar for Best Documentary since bowling isn't a documentary at all.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Great thread folks just read the whole thing. Way better than most political sites I visit. It seems interesting that almost everyone who posted here is pro-gun to a greater or lesser extent wich suggests to me that authoritarian leftists don't like Firefly and are thus under represented here,this of cource is fine by me.
Special thanks to Caesari for the history lesson
it's not the type of thing you get to here too often these days. Sadly enough history in this country when it's taught at all is usually sort of an elaboration on Michael Moore's cartoon. In fact if you were a history professor at many schools today and said what you said you'd probably be run off campus on a rail.
And thanks Hardware for the great links printed out a copy of The Bill of Rights and I recommend anyone a little fuzzy on what Amendment is wich do the same.
As for you Succatash or anyone who even for a second thinks Michael Moore is anything other than a propaganda artist of the worst sort I'm going to share some facts about the lies in Bowling for Columbine.
First off the first time you see Charleton Heston speak he uses not one not two but seven edits to make him sound like he said someting wich he never said. This is not how an honest man operates but thats Micheal Moore.
Second when Micheal Moore goes to the "missle factory" in Littleton and talks about trucks driving through town in the middle of the night with "pentagon payloads" he lies twice. First off that Lockheed Martin plant isn't a missle factory it's a plant that makes rockets for launching satellites. And when he talks about them being driven through town with "pentagon payloads" this is also a lie since they have no payloads when they leave the plant pentagon or otherwise.
Third the whole Klan and the N.R.A. thing about how they have always secretly worked together is a load of bull. First off the N.R.A. was founded by Union soldiers. The eighth president of the N.R.A. was Ulysess S. Grant. Back before being president of the N.R.A. he was president of the United States. As the U.S. president he signed into law The Federal Ku Klux Klan Act and Enforcement Act. This empowered the president to use troops to suppress the Klan. His leadership led to over 5000 arrests.
And finally during the civil rights era the N.R.A. had all black southern chapters.
You know I used to be a big fan of Michael Moore
until I saw Bowling for Columbine and what I saw didn't jibe with my understanding of reality I started asking questions and found out he's a total goreram liar. And if he full of it in this movie he's full of it in his other stuff too wich means I wasted a lot of money over the years on his BS nearly two hundred dollars by my reconing. Wich is why he's not a very popular person with me.
Anyway if anyones interested in finding out more about whats wrong with Mr.Moore's "documentary" check out Truth about Bowling for Columbine
I'd post a link but I'm not good with high tech gizmos just drop it in a search engine and you'll get there.
Also of interest www.moorelies.com
Also you might be interested in checking out Michael Moore Hates America
Michael Moore Hates America is a documentary that is currently being made that largely focuses on the fat man himself and the quest to sit down with Mr.Moore to convince him to return the Oscar for Best Documentary since bowling isn't a documentary at all.
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I seem to be repeating myself I must learn to be patient and not push the button a couple of times when it is slow.DOH!
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