Chrisisall, come save me! Let's talk Plot Holes.
POSTED BY: mima
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 5, 2005 16:14
VIEWED: 14937
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Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
I'm going to add one issue of my own, though, which has no answer in the script. It was at least a year, probably more llike 18 months, from the time that Simon broke River out until she was outed in the bar on Beaumonde. So what was the Operative doing all that time? How could it have taken so long for him to track her down? I can speculate: maybe he tried to trace Simon through his contacts (the people who got him into the facility), but ran into a dead end. Maybe the Operative wasn't called in right away, until the earlier attempts failed (we have to assume that the first Alliance agent failed to communicate anything about Mal and Serenity). Maybe they had to wait until River was exposed to the subliminal message, and she never was in all that time (huh? doesn't Serenity pick up wave broadcasts for entertainment?). Still, it was a delay they would hardly have been willing to tolerate, given the stakes.
The above:
The Operative wasn't assigned the task of hunting Simon/River until recently... it's covered in the comics. The subliminal message had only been playing for a few weeks. And while Serenity probably does pick up entertainment feeds when they are able, Simon and River doesn't seem like an avid TV watcher to me :).
Also, I believe it's only been 8 months, not 18, since Serenity took the pair in.
4. The ship's repair would have taken time, and they had the Alliance help out a little.
8. Any sort of virus or disease would have died off with the population. They were in open air the entire time (until the rescue ship, which was open); any type of gas would have dissipated into the atmosphere.
13. Mr. Universe gets the short end of the stick in the movie. The novelization gives a cool explanation, however: he convinced the planetary computers that terraforming didn't hold and it was evacuated.
15. That was just Fanty & Mingo's 25%, and they took off with it (you can see this in the background if you look for it).
20. We'll have to wait to find out :).
25. During Mal's "I aim to misbehave" speech, Zoe points out that the Alliance probably knows about Mr. Universe. M.U. doesn't seem to be overly paranoid about the crew, and at that point the Alliance is already there.
My question is what the hell they would have done if the Alliance WASN'T there... they would have still had a fleet of pissed off reavers after them.
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."
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24. I had wondered about this issue with Simon since I saw a pre-screening in June. After a lot of research into it, I and others determined that Simon never actually detailed how River was freed from the acadamy. In the pilot episode he describes how he came into contact with an underground movement. They tell him they can help break River out. He spends his small fortune and with their help, frees her. Although it seems that the TV show didn't intend for Simon to be directly involved in the retrieval operation, it doesn't directly contridict it either. After watching the film I assumed that the folks working in the Osiris underground were the ones that piloted the escape craft.
Another Simon issue was in regards to his willingness to slug Mal after the robbery almost went south. Simon was much more timid in the TV show, where did this agression come from? My explaination for that was 1. Concern for River and 2. He's been living as a pirate for months now. That'll change any man.
Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.
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Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
22. Interestingly, VC includes a production photo of Inara shooting an actual bow and arrow, rather than the high-tech crossbow thingy. The latter was inserted in CGI post-production. Not sure why, but it's kind of interesting.
The answer's also in the VC. It's in the scenes that were cut. In the earlier Companion house scenes, it shows Inara teaching the girls archery and, later, in the scene where Inara opens her trunk and looks through it, it also shows the bow and arrow.
The fact that they cut all the scenes that introduced the bow and arrow meant that they thought it might be too confusing for the audience to suddenly have Inara shooting one.
I'm not sure why, because having her shoot a high tech crossbow wasn't jarring at all in that respect (!). We still didn't get to see that she was trained in using it.
It still looked nifty. So it's all good.
And as for the Simon/escape thing. In the episode 'Serenity', Simon clearly states that his contacts would smuggle River out of the Academy in the cryo box and meet him at Persephone. In the story he told the crew, he had no part in the actual rescue. He also told them that he had absolutely no idea as to the things they'd done to her.
Joss has since claimed that Simon originally lied to the crew. He wasn't at a point where he trusted them yet. So... he lied. About that, and about being told basically *everything* that had been done to her, including knowing the safety word.
*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"
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Quote:Well, I don't claim to be an expert, but I thought the movie took place (will take place?) 8 months after the series ends (with Objects In Space). That's why I suggested 12-18 months from "Serenity" to "Serenity" .
I believe it's only been 8 months, not 18, since Serenity took the pair in.
Quote:It looked to me as though Mal deliberately attacked the Reavers by nailing them with the cannon -- the idea being to draw the rest of the flotilla after them. Er... but maybe you meant they couldn't be sure there was a whole fleet of Alliance warships on hand. I guess I don't have an answer for that. Maybe Mal was practising Book's admonition to Believe?
My question is what the hell they would have done if the Alliance WASN'T there... they would have still had a fleet of pissed off reavers after them.
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3) they obviously would have if they could have, but they couldn't because....they couldn't.
10) They fired as they were approaching to land; they might have also spotted Wash as an easy mark visually through the window, or using heat detection. (?)
Still too shocked to think it all through clearly Chrisisall
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double post, sorry - see below
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Quote:One of the crew says outright they need Mr. Universe to do it. Why didn't they play it for Mr. U from the ship and let him record it? What do you do with a CD if you don't have a CD player? I don't think they had the equipment.
3. why didn't they just broadcast the found miranda recording from miranda?
Quote:I think we were supposed to assume the Alliance won the air battle, then helped the crew fix her up. I'm sure they have lots of cool repair-type stuff.
4. when they landed on mr. universe's planet the ship was TOAST. there was no planetside way to get those boosters reattached.
Quote:I'm pretty sure it was his shoulders, both dislocated. I've had that happen - OUCH.
5. the operative's cracked back. ummm...
Quote:I guess so, because he did. :-) Really, it could have gone either way, I think.
6. would a True Believer, as inara put it, really go so far as to help them?
Quote:I think it was purely so the audience could see everyone's reaction to the Pax message. Not a big hole, something easily forgiven.
7. on miranda, why didn't someone stay with serenity.
Quote:I didn't seem that cockeyed to me and it didn't look too near the ceiling, plus the reaver ship was still in the air. Have to get some still shots to be sure though.
10.how did the reaver harpoons come *down* through the cockpit to get wash?
Quote:Ever know a regular steroid user? They can drive a car, make dinner etc., but boy if you push the wrong button you'd have an easier time convincing a grizzly he doesn't want to eat you. I think of the reavers as people on a REALLY REALLY bad roid rage.
11. despite everything about the craziness of the reavers, they supposedly still have the ability to reason and plan
Quote:I think the Miranda memory was the dam in the river of her stability, and getting the info out, seeing it for real herself broke the dam, and allowed the flow of reason to begin again.
18. i'm assuming the memory that river says "isn't hers" was the lady in the recording. why does hearing it suddenly cure her?
Quote:Who says they never let prey escape? Maybe they had all the fresh meat they wanted back in town......
23.why didn't the mother ship go after them? they NEVER let prey escape.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
One other thing that bothered me...
They mount this big gun on Serenity. Then they fly into Reaver territory for the first time. You can see on the external shot that there is a space-suit outside the ship. Someone is manning the gun.
Then they switch to an interior shot. Everyone is looking out at the Reavers surrounding them, looking tense and afraid. But... Everyone who could possibly be manning that gun is in the cockpit.
I can field that one. In the Visual Guide, it says the figure manning the gun is a corpse in a space suit. I suspect they did it so that the Reavers wouldn't realize something was different when a man was on top at the gun when they were coming back.
I figure Mal thought they could only use that trick once.
"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds
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Hello, my first post, so please be kind...This is a fun thread, and I can't resist!
As a huge sci-fi fan I was surprised at just how tight Joss Whedon made this extremely intricate story. Most of the "holes" raised in this thread have been well answered, but a few comments:
On why the Operative helped the crew at the end:
NOT cheesy! The whole movie led up to him behaving this way.
I think the Operative thought of himself as a pure Samurai. He was unwaveringly loyal to his soveriegn (the alliance) and repeatedly mentioned that his purpose, or job, was everything to him. He had no name, no rank, no place in fair society, only purpose. A VERY samurai perspective. He also seemed legitimately affected and insulted when Mal called him an "assassin", as a Samurai surely would.
And, of course, he was a flawless martial arts killer who quoted Sun Tzu, encouraged his victims to fall on their swords, and was as polite as he was ruthless.
In my view, very Samurai indeed.
The climax of the film has Mal demonstrate for the Operative, the barbarous, unforgivable actions of his sovereign and he loses faith with them. Without a soveriegn, a Samurai cannot exist (he can go Ronin, but that's usually taboo).
For these reasons one of the best plot elements of the movie, and for me one of the most unexpected, is the operative ordering is men to stand down, speaking for our heroes to the parliament and seeing to their (extensive) repairs.
He's honor bound. Mal didn't kill him, and Mal was right on the issue they warred over. Honor was due.
When Mal warns the operative that he will kill him if he ever sees him again, the response is:
"You won't. There's nothing left to see."
That's a Samurai admitting he's dishonored himself by serving a lie. In his eyes, because he no longer had purpose, he no longer exists. And, in all likelihood, he will soon commit ritual suicide because he has no other honorable recourse.
A "good" death, to use his words.
...
Of course, that's just me taliking.
;)
...
Now, as to why the crew couldn't have beamed Mr. Univers the film for broadcast... there you got me.
Maybe a rebroadcast signal cw\ould be technologically interpreted as a fake, maybe they didn't trust Mr. Universe to do it outside their direct scrutiny, maybe the nebula presented some kind of freakish interference?
I don't have a good answer for that one...
_____
Finally, on Wash getting nailed... I don't think he's killed by a harpoon, I think he's killed by a "claw". We see many Reaver ships with crab-like claws that they use (for some mysterious reason) to rend ships into pieces. If that's what hit him, the angle would make more sense. The Reaver "claw ship" could be perched on top of the bridge reaching/slashing down and in.
The spear that shoots at and misses Mal and Zoe just afterwards looks like an altogether different thing. Whatever hit Was was thick, more than a foot in diameter.
____
As to why no one stayed on Serenity... it was swarming with Reavers and wasn't safe. The entire crew had a better chance in the permanent structure outside..
It's not like Serenity was going any place without Atmo engines.
:)
And, my last comment...
___
When Wash died, I was stunned, and a bit panicked, That dread and fear bred a tension to the final minutes of the movie I haven't felt since I was a child and didn't know any better.
If Joss was prepared to kill Wash... who woudln't he kill? My heart was pounding, and frankly, I thought Simon was a goner. To kill Wash was a painful thing to do, but it was the right thing to do for the story because it made the ending an unforgettable, entirely unsafe experience.
I mean, seriously, what Firefly Fan can ever forget the moment when Wash dies, or his final words?
...and for those of you with "Return of Spock", "Wash can be cloned" fantasies, that's not Joss Whedon's way. Wash is dead. Those he left behind will have to adapt.
...but he might be in a flashback.
:)
Anyway, great thread, this is a great crowd,
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