Major Spoiler and I'm calling Joss out
POSTED BY: fireflygal
UPDATED: Friday, October 14, 2005 18:37
VIEWED: 62576
PAGE 20 of 23
Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
I doubt people needed to be told this. These things happen in *real life* and people experience it every single day. There are a billion different religions devoted to the reflection and explanation for this. This wasn't any lengthy expose or study on the topic, it was a 5 second sequence in a movie as a cheap ploy to swing emotions, cheap thrills that cost me $11 bucks + parking is not appreciated.
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Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.
I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. You thought it was a cheap ploy, I see it as a theme that Joss keeps using and people keep misinterpreting.
As for dwelling in depth on it, Joss did that spectacularly with The Body, one of the best Buffy episodes. There wasn't time or space to do that in the movie, but it isn't like Joss couldn't.
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Some part of me just thinks Joss can't help but kill people in loving relationships, but that's me being a curmudgeon. The first time he did it it was poignant, now it is getting kind of tired.
The rest of me was still pleased with it. At least the second time I saw the film I was pleased. And Book's story could still haunt the crew in the next movie.
And hell, zoe could be pregnant. Giving us a little Wash, plenty of room for family and flashbacks. I'll trust Joss, even though I think wrecking the beautiful dynamic of wash/zoe would have ruined the series (I really thought Buffy was a bathos train wreck after Tara died.) But it will serve well as a building block for the next two movies. We just have to make sure we get two more movies for Joss to make it work.
-Eli
If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
www.civil-unrest.com
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Maybe Old Dog needs new tricks... Time to put that inventive mind to work again. Killing off characters after awhile gets people to say and think "Why bother watching, he's up to his old stage trick of *building you up* and *tearing you down*"...
After awhile, people just stop coming and you are known as the "guy who kills off his main characters just to get a cheap thrill"...
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Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.
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Very few things in our lives are certain. One of those things is that we WILL all die. And in almost every case there will be more stories we'll have wished we could be a part of. That's a part of what makes death so sad.
So would the world be a better place if no one ever died?
It's a big question, and a bit unfair because we aren't talking about life, nor are we talking about everyone--just Wash. But even considering those things, I think the answer can be applied to your question.
The answer is no. That we have limited time on this world is what gives our actions weight. What do we choose to do in the blink of an instant we're alive? Does anything say more about us? I don't think so.
Wash was a good person, and he died a good person.
You speak of Serenity like you want it to be just an artificial construction. And you're right. It IS an artifical construction--thats the truth of it. But the Truth of it, for me, is that somewhere in the multiverse--or whatever you want to call it--it is a REAL thing. Joss maybe stumbled across it, and had the ability to write it down and direct it. But he can't just bend the story to do whatever he wants.
The story is real, and in the story people died. Reavers killed Wash, not Joss. And yes that view probably makes me crazy, but that's the way I see things.
Yes, there is that interview where he says that he wrote it without anyone dying and then choose to kill people so that newbies would believe it. Yes, I achknowledge it. You can continue to rail against him with that interview snippet on your side. But it doesn't matter to me. I don't need to know how he wrote it, I don't need to know the process, I don't need to know any of that. Nor honestly do I want to. You kill a story when you look at its insides to closely. I know, I'm an English major right now and I've seen just that happen time and time again.
What I do need to know is what I said above about death. That is what truly informs the meaning of Wash's death, not as a device in a work of fiction, but as something that happened in the world.
One last thought, and if you've been with me through this entire soapbox type speech I appreciate it. You mention a few times how Joss claims to want to create things that people love, and ask how that jives with these deaths. I don't know about you, but in my life everything I've loved has not always been what made me happy. Happiness is all well and good, but I think sometimes we lose sight of the fact that happiness alone is meaningless. If we were always happy, would it even matter? If it were never dark, would the sun be so beautiful, or if the sun never came up would the moon mean the same thing? I cried when Wash died--it did not make me happy, but I still loved Serenity. Why? Because the contrast of that sadness with the happiness in the finale of the story made both emotions all the stronger. Simon and Kaylee finally together, Inara realizing she should stay on the ship, Mal and River bonding, the sound of rain on the ship's hull, and the beauty of that moment when it breaks out of the clouds. These moments are stronger BECAUSE Wash died, and because of these moments of happiness the sad moments are even sadder. One scene in paticular breaks my heart every single time, Mal tells Zoe to get the ship squared away and you can see in Zoe's eyes that she just doesn't care anymore. It's a horrible moment, but it's a moment that matters. That SAYS something about what it means to be human.
And so yes, I love Serenity even though it breaks my heart at some moments.
Thanks for sharing your views, and thank you even more for listening to my rambling thoughts on the subject.
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I really don't understand why you are so banged up by this fireflygal. Admittedly, I am a new Firefly fan. Serentity (the movie) was my first exposure and frankly, I'm hooked. But I've been a Joss Whedon fan for along time. I've been a fan of Buffy since Day 1. I know this is a shock to some of you who have been here a while, but there was a Joss before there was Firefly.
Throught the seven very successful seasons of Buffy, several beloved characters died. Heck, Buffy died twice (though she came back). Miss Calendar. Tara (which was heart wrenching). But it made the story a story.
I also enjoy reading fantasy genre books, mostly set in the D&D realms (Forgotten Relams or DragonLance). I love R.A. Salvatore's writing, but the fact that Drizzt never ever dies makes it SO unbelievable. Yes, I know... it's fiction... FANTASY fiction at that. I'd still like a feeling of excitement and intrigue. Sadly, the death of a major character is sometimes the best way to do this.
As a final note... Joss doesn't owe you anything. Joss' style of writing and bringing his characters to life is why I (and others) love his work. He owes you no more than Lucas owes us a reason for that damned Jar Jar. It is what it is...
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I apologize if I repeat any of the points above. I honestly tried to read through the whole thread, but I got lost around the minor flame wars.
Why Wash? In a weekly TV show, the passionate but rocky relationship between Wash and Zoe was excellent story material. In a feature film (or even three feature films) it's time that can't be spared. Once you take away that dynamic, Wash offers comic relief, he offers innocence, he offers heart - but he doesn't offer dramatic momentum. He'd just be along for the ride, keeping Zoe happy and human. Despite posts to the contrary, I doubt that RL actor issues had anything to do with the decision. Wash was a pretty obvious choice.
Why Book? He had so many hidden secrets to explore. When are we going to hear his story?
I think it is entirely possible that (details aside) Serenity *is* Shepherd Book's story. It makes sense to me that Book may have once been very much like the Operative, and that at some point in his life, Book came to the same epiphany that Mal forced on the Operative. Joss doesn't have to tell Book's story, because (for all intents and purposes) it is already there.
Why anyone? Well, this has been explored rather thoroughly, but believe it or not, I think I may have something new to add. Other than the character deaths, what's the single biggest complaint Browncoats have had about the BDM? Most of the ensemble cast we love had to take a back seat.
With 9 major characters and only two hours to work with, how could the movie have dedicated the same screen time we've come to expect for character interaction and development? As much as we'd all love to see a two hour episode of Firefly on the big screen, a feature film is a fundamentally different creature. You don't get to see the slow and intricate growth; you get to see the defining moments of a larger story. By dispensing with two (albeit beloved) characters, we have the opportunity in future movies to spend more time with the survivors.
Just a thought. Or three.
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Here is what I find ironic about the "for the newbies" issues.
Who gets more impant from it? Who does it mean more to?
Have you gone back to the serise and looked at any of the other episodes after this?
The tears I did have, came not in the move, but watching Serenity again where Inara and Book are talking in her shuttle and he says "I am not even sure I am on the right ship."
I can't fault Joss for making me feel. I just wish he had more time to give more catharsys.
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I agree with Sefinia in that I see River as being the next pilot for Serenity.
She'll finally be able to 'pull her weight' as well as being able to form a bond with the ship that Wash, while he was an awesome pilot, could never beat.
I'm basing this thought on what happened with River in 'Objects in Space' along with the fact that Joss rarely does anything without a reason. I highly doubt that he killed Wash just to appease the newbies--I'm sure that's a part of it, but he's going to do something with his death. What better way to introduce River to being a pilot than sliding her in after the original pilot (who, for emotional response, was well loved by the fans) dies. Why waste that kind of situation in a story? If you have to kill a character off, make it hurt. Any GOOD storyteller makes it hurt.
I felt everything you felt when Wash died, the pain and the betrayal. It wasn't until the second time that I saw the movie that I realized that there might be a reason. If it genuinely makes you feel better, send off your letter.
But something to keep in mind is that you never owned the characters. They weren't formed in your head, you didn't write the dialogue or the action or the situation. You supported them, and you loved them, but you don't know what they were meant for. None of us do, except for Joss Whedon. We're just along for the ride. Telling him "How dare you kill OUR character, you stupid writer--we're your bread and butter!" (which is what the letter comes off as, rather than an honest question) seems very wrong to me. You had enough faith to see the show on this far, why not have enough faith to believe that there might possibly be a reason for Wash's death? Or at least take a tone slightly less on the arrogant side in your letter. It it probable that his character was always meant to be temporary.
Perhaps you'll get an answer to your 'calling out' letter if there are sequels.
--Kat
"I'm so hip I can't see over my pelvis!"
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Quote:
Perhaps you'll get an answer to your 'calling out' letter if there are sequels.
--Kat
"I'm so hip I can't see over my pelvis!"
I think this is where some of the hurt and anger may be coming from: we're dependent on a sequel for the catharsis of seeing how Zoe and the crew deals with Wash, and to a lesser extent Book, dying. We're dependent on the production company giving us permission so to speak to see the next chapter. If Firefly were still on the air, this probably would have been the season two finale, but we would know that in season three we'd see more about how teh characters moved on and dealt with the pain, and then we could as well(I realize this still assumes a bigger power is involved, but let's also assume Firefly was a huge hit by now and the network would never think of canceling until the story was done.
)Right now we have to wait probably two more years to find out what happens next. That's a lot of time for nail biting and worry about if it will get made at all.
Lady Shelley
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.redhawke.org
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Quote:
Perhaps you'll get an answer to your 'calling out' letter if there are sequels.
--Kat
"I'm so hip I can't see over my pelvis!"
I think this is where some of the hurt and anger may be coming from: we're dependent on a sequel for the catharsis of seeing how Zoe and the crew deals with Wash, and to a lesser extent Book, dying. We're dependent on the production company giving us permission so to speak to see the next chapter. If Firefly were still on the air, this probably would have been the season two finale, but we would know that in season three we'd see more about how teh characters moved on and dealt with the pain, and then we could as well(I realize this still assumes a bigger power is involved, but let's also assume Firefly was a huge hit by now and the network would never think of canceling until the story was done.
)Right now we have to wait probably two more years to find out what happens next. That's a lot of time for nail biting and worry about if it will get made at all.
Lady Shelley
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.redhawke.org
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