Major Spoiler and I'm calling Joss out
POSTED BY: fireflygal
UPDATED: Friday, October 14, 2005 18:37
VIEWED: 62576
PAGE 19 of 23
I haven't read all of the replies here, so excuse me if I repeat something someone else has said.
I'm torn between what I saw last night and the reality that Mr. Whedon must have faced when putting this movies together.
I find it hard to believe that he would arbitrarily kill off 2 of the core characters. It is more likely that Mr. Glass and Tudyk opted not to continue with the francise (if we can call it one), and Mr. Whedon was forced to write in the deaths.
The deaths of these 2 characters has affected me, and I truly wish they did not have to happen.
That said, I feel that the movie is up to, if not beyond Mr. Whedon's standards.
I'm not one to sit around and nit pick, River's backstory was OK, tho it did diverge from the series somewhat. But I don't care about the little stuff, I enjoyed the movie, hard emotions and all. I intend to see it again, and will buy the DVD when it's released.
I hope the movie does well enough to warrant a sequel and/or a series. I would gladly watch either.
In the end, however, I will sorely miss Book and Wash, and hope that we see them visit in some future movie or show. ( it occurs to me that a sequel that speaks to Book's past would make a helluva movie. And the appearance of Wash's twin wouldn't bother me a bit.)
Worfgzr
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Well... they've got your $54 + $185, that's all's needed. You don't *have* to love it.
Back to my cheap people watching at the airport.
Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283
Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I am "half newbie" so I’m unsure if my opinion matters or not, but… 
My family of 7, discovered Firefly via the SciFi channel. Before the third episode aired we’d saved up and ordered the DVDs from Amazon. This DVD set has had more viewing in our home than any others: Ever. I hit the net (& this site) and read oodles of info, felt like I’d caught up a bit and enjoyed Firefly even more, and Wow! Look, a movie! I was excited, until….
I went looking for spoilers for two reasons:
1)Commentary from the creator about this Not being Firefly – loud red alert going off with That statement
2)I was curious about what folks who saw the bloggers preview experienced.
I’m over 40, was also around during the original Star Trek & remember loosing faith as the movies came along. I read spoilers for Serenity with Hope but what I thought were realistic expectations. When I read about Book & Wash I cried - just reading it in a synopsis did that to me. The creator of this 'verse scored real from me; give the man an apple. I've not seen Mr. Whedon’s other material, so I have only the Firefly shows to base my impression on and uh, I expected different.
On my Firefly DVDs, I see BDHs surviving incredible (fantastic) odds. A Good Day meant you were still flying. The *hope* in these shows, the preciousness of love in a battered ‘verse & its ability to heal even the most broken IN time, the essentialness of Family - however you create it (whether it’s 9 folks on a boat or a moma and about 40 ranch hands or a whorehouse); even the ability to Take your freedom on your own terms, not wait for it to be given to you spoke to me. I do the job & I get paid translated, with mirth, to my life. I don’t back up to the paycheck, I work hard & I get paid & I take care of me & mine & others in need the best I can. Does that make me a BDH? Maybe my heart needs to believe that a little too much in My Reality.
Perhaps if I'd known more about Mr. Whedon I never would have watched Firefly. But I am thankful for my ignorance in this regard. I love fantasy. FANTASY: unreal with a twist of possible enough to hold my interest and connect me to characters. Life is challenging enough & one Heck of an Adventure but I watch TV & movies to escape or enhance the challenge. There’s room for folks like me in the ‘verse, truly, or at least there was on Firefly.
In fairness to Mr. Whedon though, Firefly was cancelled. Maybe the Bigger Picture Reason was the fantasy factor? Heaven knows everything lately is about ‘reality’ until you almost choke on it. As I understood it there was a vision for Bigger, Bolder, More Realistic portrayal for Serenity. It seems it was fulfilled. Folks who have done their utmost to support the Movie got what was promised: A movie with certain characters by a certain creator that was a more realistic continuation of adventures in a certain ‘verse.
I find folks who are hurt or angry saying they will Support the Franchise not much different than those of us who lollopped along with Trek/ Paramount doing the same thing. But, being a bit older & less free with my time, dollars & affections, I’m sorry. No one gets to brutalize my heart for a cause or a franchise or just so I can call myself Browncoat or ask me to swallow a more realistic story arc so a sequel that Might include these folks Might be made….
Like uh, look I ‘might’ have swampland to sell ya. But first, buy this pile of jagged, sharp rocks that will cut you as you carry them away(serenity) so I can use that money to create a path to the swamp(sequel) where there might be swampland(third movie)… OK? – who would Buy that? (except for Congress :: grin :: )
Serenity cannot take the sky (Firefly) from me. Enjoy the more realistic journey, those with the heart to bear the cost. Those who do not - I can assure you that time does heal the ache. I watch Kirk and Crew these days with the same enjoyment as the old days & my children manage to enjoy it too. Remember, the Firefly 'verse is still shiny even if Serenity is dark & more real than some of us wil
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by frunk:Quote:
Originally posted by safeat2nd:
Here's the problem. I'm not a newbie. I've invested too much time in these charaters to see them...cast off with such ease.
I felt cheated as did the other 5 with me. Cheated my the manner by which they were dispatched. Cheated by the stories left untold.
Isn't that the point? Death cheats us. We don't get to hear the stories from those of us who have died.
Joss is telling us something about death here. That's a story, he's telling a story that maybe you weren't expecting, but almost definitely don't want to hear. Maybe it doesn't make it your kind of movie, but the more I think about it the greater my appreciation.
Don't mean to be trite, but maybe if you didn't know already that "death cheats us" and needed to be told. Maybe the rest of America, who likes their primetime reality TV so much, needed to be told this. But me hopes that most people above children age knows a little bit above death.
Personally, it's a waste of celluloid to try and punctuate the movie this cheaply - resorting to using a cheapo dramatic device just to carry the plot along and make the rest of the movie "believable". phooey. We weren't cheated by death, we were cheated by a silly simple-minded dramatic ploy designed to swing the emotions of the fan. That's it, no one else watching it would even feel the same way - only a fan would. It's not an intellectual exercise or an allegory of real life - just a cheap movie schtick.
You are right, I have learnt me something. I've learnt that there are never an exception to "Hollywood is just Hollywood as ever - formulaic whenever possible, cheap emotion swings with asanine dramatic devices + orchestra music when everything else fails. Oh wait, I already knew that, I just had false hope otherwise.
Quote:
Originally posted by frunk:
People react different ways to loss, anger and rejection are a couple of them. Since Joss wrote the story he's the one responsible for the loss. Don't let yourself think that it's as casual or as cold-hearted as you might think, there's a point beyond the immediate emotional impact.
Personally I'd be delighted if this is the only time any of us have to deal with death, but it won't be.
Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283
Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Don't mean to be trite, but maybe if you didn't know already that "death cheats us" and needed to be told. Maybe the rest of America, who likes their primetime reality TV so much, needed to be told this. But me hopes that most people above children age knows a little bit above death.
The point is that people aren't being told this, they are feeling it. They feel cheated, like something is lost. They are reacting to it just like a real death. And people keep on blaming Joss for death, instead of looking at why they are reacting so.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeyMo:
Great review up on AICN, and the guy spends most of it talking about Joss's decision to off Book and Wash.Quote:
----------------------------------------------
Serenity is everything Firefly always seemed to want to be but never was. Serenity is everything it should be and then some. Serenity is real honest to god Western that puts you right on the edge of your seat praying for someone, anyone to come out alive, and never promising that that’s actually going to happen. Serenity hits everything it aims at – it’s continuously funny, even in the most dramatic of sequences; it’s heartbreaking at the most unexpected of times; and it’s chock full of action and real danger every step of the way.
Hear hear, my friend.
The best thing about this site is the intelligent, civil discussion. Having read other thoughts -- and after seeing the movie for a 2nd time where I could pay more detailed attention, I am going revise my opinion against Book's and Wash's deaths.
I am still sad that they died but I now think they were dramatically necessary. For the plot, Book's death forces Mal to make his decision. For emotional impact, watch how each of the death's affects the other characters. And, how they affect the audience! My 13 year old daughter was crying when Wash died. And, to paraphrase the Operative, they were good deaths. Book had just shot down the Alliance ship (I would have liked to see this but it would have distracted from the main story) and Wash had just done the most amazing piece of flying in his career.
I think Joss pulled out all stops to make it good and complete in itself because this movie may be all we are going to get (fingers crossed). I came to Firefly via DVD then watched Angel and Buffy where plenty of major characters died (how did Buffy fans make it from the end of Season 5 to Season 6?). If Firefly had continued, we probably would've seen character deaths, especially if there had been such a major confrontation with the Alliance.
So, I am going to go with the "Trust Joss" school and do remember that all 9 actors are supposed signed for 3 movies. I doubt Joss would do simple flashbacks, he'll do something that we won't see coming. And that's why we watch.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I've been a Browncoat since before anyone described themselves as that. My forum name (and names in various MMORPG's and various unrelated forums) is homage to my favorite character Book. Book dies without his story being told!!! Herr Whedon mentions that it will be covered in a sequel--how? As a big flashback or more likely as a seesaw flashback current affair. Sorry while that could be good, it completely eliminates the ability to have Book essentially 'answer' questions. So Joss can 'artistically' leave Book and his Neo-Jesuit Monk Order still enigmatically vague. I'm already feeling unsatisfied.
Not to mention that Serenity appeared to have some concessions to all the short visioned sorts that swear up and down that Book had to be ex-Alliance Soldier/Police/etc accounting for all of his combat training with no training or knowledge coming after he joined said religious order(and within the past 7 years too--he's in his late 50's ok?!?). Sorry, Joss that background has already BEEN DONE in scifi, westerns, even modern genres. That's the problem everyone expects that and when you go that way then one becomes cliche.
I'm still hoping that my theory (which I no of no other to promote it before me) of Book being a long standing (20+ years) of a religious order that's function is more than the futuristic equivalent of transcribing texts. Whether it's information gathering (in the true spy/agent/operative sense), more aggressive defense of the faith and/or members of the faith (i.e. Warrior Monks), church problem solvers, or some more convoluted purpose. But alas that won't be truly answerable without a living member of the order that's also forthcoming--not easily managed with Book dead.
As for Wash dying, I'm a little more mixed. For one he died after they landed (to validate his flying skills) partially for shock value as much as anything. It does give Zoe an even more complicated emotional landscape, which is a good thing. Does eliminate the super pilot Deus ex Machina feeling that some sorts might have had (not I, as I have met crazy good real world pilots). The fact that he frequently had some of the best humorous lines is also a disappointment.
I do appreciate that people have to die to establish the credibility of risk. Also because of that idiot notion that arose from formal analysis of literature that unless the protagonists suffer and die a story isn't good. My feeling now is the same in regard to that second claim, get over it! I mean English professors would say that any work that doesn't have major tragedy is written poorly but the same prose capped with a sentence stating that they all died unhappily ever after would be validated in that mind set. That same idea pervades critical movie analysis--people must be tortured, struggling, and (hopefully?) die to validate a story as a 'classic'--writing, acting and directing are actually not relevant to this large growing swath of story critics. The death to validate danger is definitely relevant here though, I'm just bummed out about it.
Browncoat Monk
I don't care what you believe in as long as you BELIEVE!
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I doubt people needed to be told this. These things happen in *real life* and people experience it every single day. There are a billion different religions devoted to the reflection and explanation for this. This wasn't any lengthy expose or study on the topic, it was a 5 second sequence in a movie as a cheap ploy to swing emotions, cheap thrills that cost me $11 bucks + parking is not appreciated.
Quote:
Originally posted by frunk:Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Don't mean to be trite, but maybe if you didn't know already that "death cheats us" and needed to be told. Maybe the rest of America, who likes their primetime reality TV so much, needed to be told this. But me hopes that most people above children age knows a little bit above death.
The point is that people aren't being told this, they are feeling it. They feel cheated, like something is lost. They are reacting to it just like a real death. And people keep on blaming Joss for death, instead of looking at why they are reacting so.
Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283
Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
...I've read some of the posts and everything and don't know what to say. I agree with the original poster. I felt betrayed/mad/sick over the BDM. I can forgive many of the changes to the story line and some of the charaters, but to kill off two of our beloved crew? OK. Books death was atleast one with a point. It mad us mad. But he went down fighting to protect those he cared for. Wash....? That was just for shock value. We already had no love for the reavers. The ship was down safely (heck it would have been better had he died in the crash landing of the ship.) As it is/was he died for shock value. Did it shock? Heck yes it did, but was it good? No. Don't go on with the whole 'but in real life' crap either. In real life people die. Good people, bad people, everybody at some point. But I don't want to pay to see it. I wanted/expected/paid to see the rapier like wit of Wash. The wisdom (usually street) of Book. The poise of Inara. The sweetness of Kaylee. The awkward bookish Simon. The flippant devil-may-care Mal. (Yes, I know Joss wanted Mal "darker" than he was on tv, but still.) They weren't in this movie.
I am glad that it was called "Serenity". That way I can still be a Firefly Fan.
Firefly Rocks. Serenity sucks those rocks.
When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not screaming and yelling like everyone else in the car he was driving.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I'm not certain how I feel about the movie yet. And much of it has to do with these characters' deaths. Certainly, it was a surprise. I'm just not sure what the movie gained with these two deaths. Certainly, I accepted the gravity of the situation, and The Operative's brutality/coldness really came alive.
But it's a credit to the writing/acting that this happened for me well before either of my favorite ship buddies got it. I will admit that Wash's demise made for a profound punctuation mark what was an amazing and exciting sequence. It did make me (and several of my friends) worry that Joss was going to kill off the whole crew. Ikes! A body count does raise the stakes.
I'm less convinced about Book's death. It's grand that he brought down the raiding ship, but it made his character seem too much like a plot device and not the intricate, enigmatic and amazing character we'd come to recognize from the series. My reaction was, "Aw, just like Obi-Wan, only way less confusing/touching." It would be breaking the mold to have the wise old mentor survive. It almost seemed like it was done intentionally to upset Firefly fans' expectations as his character certainly wasn't developed enough for first-time viewers to feel much of an attachment.
For that matter, I worry that many of the characters really didn't get much quality time on the bigger screen. Oh some fantastic dialogue, granted, but not the dimensionality we'd seen the writers accomplish on the series with only one or two lines. And I found I missed that. Mayhaps repeat viewings will clear up how I feel about it.
Incidentally, to those who felt these deaths compared to the death of Spock, well I'd have to say you're wrong. I mean for me. I've watched ST: II dozens of times and every time I tear up at the end. Watching this film, my reaction was more like, "No, dammit. Why the hell'd you go and do that?!"
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME