WB Renews ANGEL!! Spike Aboard!! Cordy Not!!

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Originally posted by zeke023:
Only in White Wolf's Role-Playing games is it the faith that repels the demons. In myth it's the symbol. Even in the buffyverse - Willow (in season 2) does an uninvitation ritual using Christian crosses. She's Jewish. If it was faith and not. Also in season two Willow uses a scapular to ward off the evil wraith/ghost in the school - that's a Virgin Mary tradition... Willow's still Jewish. And Spike doesn't rant about the Buddha's death - he brags about the Crucifiction.

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On the contrary, I have read in numerous vampire tales, that it is the faith behind the symbol, and not the symbol itself. The Anita Blake books and the movie Fright Night come to mind. And I am in no way implying that it is the faith of the person whielding the cross that is important, but the faith of every person in the world--the code of goodness and morality the symbol represents. After all, Buffy is agnostic, and the cross works for her. In "Beneath You," Spike leans against a cross, which burns him, yet no one was holding it.

Oh, and I completly agree with the point already made by a previous poster that a person's / creature's actions are what decide whether a person is "good" or "evil." However, I was merely pointing out that Good and Evil weren't just words in the Buffyverse, they are real things. Joss Whedon clearly hasn't created a Nietzscheian universe where the actions that define good and evil are fairly arbitary things assigned by society.

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XANDER: I'm just saying, once you get the soul, doesn't that mean you start, like, picking up your own wet towels off the floor?
WILLOW: No. But maybe you start feeling really bad about leaving them there.

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Originally posted by christhecynic:
And there are so many demon spawn, but you never get to see the angel spawn (Nephalim.)

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An interesting choice. I don't know where you learned of a Nephilim from. (Hopefully not from the movie The Prophecy, 2 and 3.) A Nephilim IS a demon spawn. For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, pick up a Bible and turn to Genesis 6:4.

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days - and also afterward - when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heros of old, men of renown. -New International Version Translation.

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men men whichwere of old, men of renown. - King James Version Translation

Nephilim: The fallen ones.

Now, most interpreters believe that the Nephilim was the product of sexual union of Angel and a human woman. This is the most accepted version. Not the one I believe, but I won't get into that. Anyway, the Nephilim was one of the reasons God destroyed the earth(The flood). That along with man turning to his wickedness. "The Lord saw how great man's wickedness had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time." Genesis 6:5.

You have to remember in the Bible there are two types of angels. God's ones and the ones that fell with Lucifer. The Bible refers to Lucifer's as both demons and angels. Because they were angels and still are.)

There is also the possiblity that some of the good angels sinned against God; after Lucifer's war in heaven, by taking the daughters of man. Thus condeming themselves with Lucifer's lot. Either way the Nephilim were bad.

Connor kinda reminded me of one. Except being born from two demons.

Here endeth the lesson.

__________________________________________________
DOBSON: I'm supposed to be meeting my wife's sister. I've only got a few days to see her...

ZOE: I wish there was another way...

DOBSON: Oh, no, no. That woman is like a dragon. I mean, I believe she has a tail. If there's any other moons we need to visit, or if we could just fly very slowly...

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Interesting you should mention Lucifer, that wasn’t the devil’s name. Sorry, bad translation. Was I fact a prince who was not in the favor of god.

“Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language?”

“In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference.” –Lifted from some scholarly work. (A Pilgrim's Path)

Now, common misnomer aside, we come to your timeline. First fell good ol’ bad guy, I’ll call him “Lucifer” just because the reference to Venus (the planet) with respect to the chief enemy of god is a good one. So you contend that first Fell Lucifer, then came genesis chapter 6. The order is wrong, if we are to assume that the enemy of man, the guy who tired to make Job curse God, Is the enemy of god mentioned in the New Testament then we must accept that the falling took place between the Torah and New Testament. The Old Testament makes no mention of fallen angels, nor does it state that there is a Hell.

Sorry, but if Gehenna is Hell then we should all be so lucky as to go there. It is now lush, just as the scriptures promised. The other mentions are in fact the word grave, and dead is different from eternal torture. I really think that people should have worked to translate the bible better. Current translations are better, the Jerusalem is generally regarded as the best, although the Catholics have made their own. The King James is the worst of the lot, out done by the New American Bible (presumably the old American is a better version too, if there is one) The International beats out the New American. There are other Bibles but I don’t know as much about them.

The fact is that in the Old Testament Satan is the tester of man, under god, in the new he is the full-fledged enemy of the divine. So Genesis 6 came before the fall of one third of the host. Many Apocryphal books call it the little fall, or the precursor of the big fall. In these works the angels who had kids with people (as well as taught people bad things like herb craft, astrology, divination and sorcery.)

In Sammuel 19:9 it says god controls evil (most of the rest of the bible says he controls good) so back in the day god held all the cards.

And yes, there is debate about who the Nephilim were, for one thing they are described as heroes, but they are also described as being nasty. Some speculate that they were the heroes of old as in Greek Heroes, this would say that Hercules (and those like him) was a product of the union between angels and people, not a god and a person.

It is interesting that you should say that the flood was partially to wipe them out, and that they aren’t the kids of angels. This is because it is the same Apocrypha that says they are the kids of angels that says they are part of the reason for the flood.

Here ends the counter lesson, do not take offense.

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Originally posted by Talrius:

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Originally posted by christhecynic:
And there are so many demon spawn, but you never get to see the angel spawn (Nephalim.)

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Nephilim: The fallen ones.

Now, most interpreters believe that the Nephilim was the product of sexual union of Angel and a human woman. This is the most accepted version. Not the one I believe, but I won't get into that. Anyway, the Nephilim was one of the reasons God destroyed the earth(The flood). That along with man turning to his wickedness. "The Lord saw how great man's wickedness had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time." Genesis 6:5.

My question would be - if the Christian God so valued free will that he gave his children choice, why would it be evil for women to sleep with angels? If that's what they choose?
Oh, sorry, I forgot - it's not about good and evil, as in causing harm, it's about CONTROL.


There is also the possiblity that some of the good angels sinned against God; after Lucifer's war in heaven, by taking the daughters of man. Thus condeming themselves with Lucifer's lot. Either way the Nephilim were bad.

How is that bad, again? Just because they didn't follow orders? I tend to agree with Heinlein - "The only sin is in hurting someone else unnecessarily. Hurting oneself is not a sin, just stupid."

Connor kinda reminded me of one. Except being born from two demons.


Connor was a tortured soul, resulting from what was done to him, not from what he was. If he had been raised other than in a hell dimension, by someone who loved him as opposed to someone bent on making him a tool for revenge, he may have turned out differently.
His problem was with the people around him, not with the manner of his birth.
He had a soul - was NOT a demon, even if he was born of them. He was NOT evil, he was tortured and broken.
Big difference.




"You mock my pain!" - Princess Buttercup
"Life is pain, Princess. Anyone who says differently is selling something." - Dread Pirate Roberts/ Wesley

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