Conceal-Carry Passes Handgun Bill in Minnesota

POSTED BY: Channain
UPDATED: Friday, January 23, 2004 19:20
VIEWED: 24375
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MANIACNUMBERONE

Tuesday, May 20, 2003 5:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Hey everybody, check this out!
http://www.strangefinger.com/america.mpg

15 MB video but worth the download. I don't know who made this but it's been in a movie.

Everyone needs to watch this video clip!

this was a very funny clip Succatash.
I wish I had made it.
Kind of reminded me of the old schoolhouse rock cartoons.

SARAHETC

Tuesday, May 20, 2003 6:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Hey everybody, check this out!
http://www.strangefinger.com/america.mpg

15 MB video but worth the download. I don't know who made this but it's been in a movie.

Everyone needs to watch this video clip!

But nobody needs to confuse it with actual American history!

It's very funny and wrong. But for me, the wrong is half of what makes it funny.

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

CAESARI

Tuesday, May 20, 2003 7:38 PM

I'm gonna try and address the concerns of Switchy and Succatash as best I can. It should be kept in mind I didn't grow up with guns, never had an interest in'em, and believed pretty much what ya'll are saying for most of my life. I decided one day to examine the issue in depth, and found to my surprise and outrage that most of what I'd been told was very simply a lie.

"Bowling for Columbine" is not a true documentary, many events were staged, including the scene where Moore picks up a rifle at a bank. This has been pointed out in several reviews in the US papers. I'm going to presume at least Switchy is from Canada.

The history shown in the video clip is from Moore's movie, which I have seen. The history is very, very bad, and is based in large part on Moore's forcing his hypothesis (that Americans are afraid, and that fear leads to owning firearms, and that leads to killing), on the historical events. The claimed link between the NRA and the KKK is entirely non-existent. I know of no historian who will claim with a straight face that the two are in any way related. The NRA was originally founded to promote marksmanship. I won't even go into the other claims in the cartoon, but I can't watch 15 seconds of it without wanting to point out the inaccuracy.

"Bowling for Columbine" is propaganda, pure and simple, there's no research, and there's no original ideas. Moore has a talent for humor, and is using it to promote his cause.

The major claim ya'll are advocating is that firearms availability contributes to crime. Today acquiring a firearms generally requires a good deal of paperwork, and a lot of waiting. 50 years ago if you bought a rifle at a department store, no one would look at you cross-eyed if you carried it home in plain view on a bus. This was back when people rode buses of course, Americans don't ride buses anymore, 'least not those who can afford not to.

The other major hole in this thinking is that England's violent crime rate has been rising for the past 100 years. 100 years ago England had a lower homicide rate, and still does, relative to the US, but it's been rising, gun control or no.

A lot of the studies and data that the gun-control groups are using are just plain wrong. Bad satistics, bad studies, and bad data. That's all I can say about it. I can recommend doing what I did, reading the information both sides have, reading the replies and rebuttals, and making up your mind. It's hard to go into it with an open mind (it was for me), but you'll be really irritated when you found out you've been deceived.

Personal story time: My Grandfather's best friend died some 20 years ago. 2 guys on speed were robbing every convenience store in a small town, and killing the owners ever time. His friend was their 5th stop. Had the first person shot the 2 criminals, how many lives would have been saved? Yet this was California, so they were all unarmed, except the badguys, who ignore robbery laws, who ignore murder laws, who ignore gun laws too.

Not everyone gets to live, and work somewhere where they feel safe as you do. Some people face danger every day. Shouldn't it be their choice whether or not they can go out armed? Who are you to make that decision for them? Maybe for you a gun would be a greater risk than it is worth, but to force that decision on everyone in the country without regard for their individual circumstances is the height of arrogance.

A few thought provoking ideas for ya before I go:

1. Most people are not criminals, if everyone is armed, the good guys have the bad guys outgunned.

2. Its cliche, but badguys get guns, legal or no. In the US ~90% (varies little by year) of guns used in crimes were illegally acquired. The laws passed only make it more difficult for the law abiding to acquire weapons.*

3. In Moore's movie, he demonstrated Canadian's don't lock their doors. Neither did Americans in the 1950's. I always lock doors, not cause I'm afraid, but for the same reason I always wear my seatbelt. People carry a gun for the same reason they have fire-exti

SUCCATASH

Tuesday, May 20, 2003 9:22 PM

You want to talk propaganda? Just look at the people Michael Moore is critizing.

The evil terrorists are out there! We are not safe!

SARAHETC

Tuesday, May 20, 2003 9:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:

The evil terrorists are out there! We are not safe!

It is true. Best to take a gun safety class and arm yourself according to the laws of your municipality.

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

ARCHER

Tuesday, May 20, 2003 10:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
You want to talk propaganda? Just look at the people Michael Moore is critizing.

The evil terrorists are out there! We are not safe!

I have to say that's a very non-productive reply. Rather than answer any points or rebut the accusations against Moore, well...

As for the terrorists:
Just last week, I found out the reason one of my favorite restaurants closed was because the owner is on the lam, alleged to be an Al Quaeda financer. He went on the dodge last year, split the country.

I probably dumped a couple of grand in that place over the years. (Being a lousy cook and tending to eat out a lot and all.) Just when I think I'm settled down and cool about the events of 2001, now I want to kill somebody all over again.

Off topic anyway. Apologies.

ARCHER

Tuesday, May 20, 2003 10:15 PM

And to get back to the topic of Michael Moore, he's a sneering twit who lives on the Upper East Side in New York City and pretends to be, well, a guy like me.

He's a liar and he milks tragedies for publicity.

If I saw him, I'd step on him. Then buy a new pair of boots.

SUCCATASH

Tuesday, May 20, 2003 10:41 PM

I have mixed emotions, as I said earlier. I never said guns should be banned. I do think that the majority of Americans are very stupid and I do not trust them.

I think Michael Moore makes some very good points. We are constantly told we have to conform. Get rid of pimples, have a perfect body, have a great haircut, women need to wear makeup -- and so everyone runs around like a chicken buying the fancy clothes, Rogain, getting plastic surgery, blah blah. It's a madness to consume out of fear of rejection.

The news media is no exception. They try to scare the hell out of us all the time. In a city in Moore's movie (not sure which) the murder rate fell 20%, but there was a 600% increase of murder stories on the news.

Our dear never-elected President Bush is the King of Fear. He is scaring the shit out of us,so he can play his war games. Instead of uniting us after 9/11, he told us to turn in our neighbors who act strange. Americans are so scared we are happily giving up our rights.

His 2004 presidential campaign is scheduled to start on the anniversary of 9/11. That is so lame to use that tragedy to stir up fear and call for more violence. His message is going to be that "Evil" is still out there, and he may get re-elected because everyone is so damn scared.

I'm not opposed to hand guns, but I wish everyone wasn't so afraid. Yeah, I know, if wishes were horses....

SUCCATASH

Tuesday, May 20, 2003 11:10 PM

To talk more specifically about guns, here's how I see it.

More guns cause more gun deaths. More cars cause more car crashes. More births cause more deaths.

It's just a simple fact. I wish everybody didn't need a gun and wasn't so afraid. As the world gets scarier, more people will buy guns, and more people will die. And that sucks.

But taking away the right to own a gun is not the answer, because it's not the problem.

ARCHER

Tuesday, May 20, 2003 11:23 PM

I saw a lot more fear-mongering out of the media than I did out of the administration. Every night, it was fear fear fear. Endless speculation on all the vectors of attack that we were vulnerable to, all sorts of panicky postulations ruled the day. Which of course is good copy for the bloodsuckers of the press. "Dirty Bomb Attack! We're more vulnerable than you might think!"

Junior catches it from Senator JFK for not doing enough to squash Al Quaeda, and he catches it from Moore for doing too much. There's no happy medium for him. But then, he volunteered to accept the demotion for governor to go ride boss herd in Sodom on the Potomac, so catching flak is part of the job. I got my own issues with him... (*cough* steel tarriffs *cough* Canadian lumber and violations of NAFTA provisions.)

Quote:

We are constantly told we have to conform. Get rid of pimples, have a perfect body, have a great haircut, women need to wear makeup -- and so everyone runs around like a chicken buying the fancy clothes, Rogain, getting plastic surgery, blah blah. It's a madness to consume out of fear of rejection.

This is not exactly a new thing, y'know. Every generation that has ever lived has been constantly under pressure to conform. We actually live in one where you don't particularly have to. I used to be quite the rebel myself. (Thank god there are no surviving pictures of the hair-down-to-the-middle-of-my-back, cammie jacket, gold peace sign and red beret days...) You can pay a price for not going with the flow, but hey, that's the price of living free. These days if I don't particularly care about an issue, I'm not going to rebel over it. If I do, well, then I'll do as I damn well see fit and avoid making a big "Look at me, I'm so rebellious!" thing out of it.

The public as idjits who can barely put the right shoe on the right foot consistantly... well, I do tend to cleave to the "Always bet on stupidity" line of thinking. Where I differentiate from the modern liberal/populist/progressive/whatever line of thought is in not using that as an excuse to try to herd people like cattle. I won't get in the way of people's potential to overcome their current limitations and turn into something special. Freedom is a dangerous, scary thing oftentimes, and I revel in that. I think that most people can be heroes in the right situation- it's hardwired into our genetic code. I think the human race is a glorious thing and I'm proud to be a part of it.

Even if most people bore the hell out of me and drive me stark raving up the wall half the time. Hey, I love 'em, but I don't have to like 'em all the time.

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