Global warming- past point of no return
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Sunday, August 31, 2008 19:16
VIEWED: 7063
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Quote:No, you are demanding "hundreds" of years of statistics to make the case for global warming, but are willing to accept six (six!!) years of data from Mars. You're the one with the heavy data filter, not me.
SignyM.... you believe what you want. I see what's been reported and am drawing my own conclusions.
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:No, you are demanding "hundreds" of years of statistics to make the case for global warming, but are willing to accept six (six!!) years of data from Mars. You're the one with the heavy data filter, not me.
SignyM.... you believe what you want. I see what's been reported and am drawing my own conclusions.
Please don't think they give a shit.
You start w/ the premise that global warming is true. I don't. Therefore, the burden of proof is upon YOU to make your case, not me to disprove it. Since we really don't know with any great certainty as to exactly how the weather is effected here on Earth, not to mention Mars, it'll take some time to see exactly what causes what. As for Mars, we're seeing things which haven't occured since we started studying it, and that is noteworthy on its own merrit. Our rocky neighbors in the solar system tend to have static enviroments, for the most part, since we've been able to view them. When events occur before our very eyes, we can't help but ask 'what's that ? how'd that happen?', and so on.
That is all.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:Logically-speaking, if you really think the last six years on Mars are noteworthy and represent significant support for solar flares as the cause of global warming, then you would have to make the case that the Earth has also undergone similar, exceptional warming in the past six years. If you reject the hypothesis of terrestrial global warming, then you have to reject solar flares as a probable cause. How can I make this clearer? You can't have it both ways. Then we are back to disussing whether global warming is occurring on Earth, and dismissing the Mars data as interesting but irrelevant.
You start w/ the premise that global warming is true. I don't. Therefore, the burden of proof is upon YOU to make your case, not me to disprove it. Since we really don't know with any great certainty as to exactly how the weather is effected here on Earth, not to mention Mars, it'll take some time to see exactly what causes what. As for Mars, we're seeing things which haven't occured since we started studying it
Quote:Au contraire. Our rocky neighbors are very dynamic. So are our gaseous neighbors. One only needs to look at the meteor strikes, the volcanic eruptions, the storms, the orbital wobbles, to know that a lot is happening on our neighbors.
Our rocky neighbors in the solar system tend to have static enviroments, for the most part
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Logically-speaking, if you really think the last six years on Mars are noteworthy and represent significant support for solar flares as the cause of global warming, then you would have to make the case that the Earth has also undergone similar, exceptional warming in the past six years. If you reject the hypothesis of terrestrial global warming, then you have to reject solar flares as a probable cause. How can I make this clearer? You can't have it both ways. Then we are back to disussing whether global warming is occurring on Earth, and dismissing the Mars data as interesting but irrelevant
Actually, I can have it both ways. Solar flares don't affect 2 planets the same way, for one. That much was pointed out in one of the articles. And to clarify, I don't assign global warming HERE as being the result of solar flares solely. But it does make the point that solar flares (increased sun activity ) do affect a planets atmosphere. It can't be overlooked that a planet which has no SUV's, no factories, etc.. is undergoing a warming process at the same time. Bottom line, there are factors which occur in nature which have far MORE to do w/ global warming than humanity's comings and goings.
Quote:
Au contraire. Our rocky neighbors are very dynamic. So are our gaseous neighbors. One only needs to look at the meteor strikes, the volcanic eruptions, the storms, the orbital wobbles, to know that a lot is happening on our neighbors
I meant w/ in the scope of human history. I didn't think I needed to point out the obvious ( impact craters ) and the like, but I should have. And while the red spot on Jupiter has been around since it was first observed via telescope, it's clear that the atmosphere of our gas giant sisters are quite dynamic. Which is why I directed my point toward the rocky planets. And I know we've seen sand storms on Mars, but nothing like the dramatic changes in polar caps or the formation of new gullies. Polar caps have been seen receeding seasonally, but not to this extent. Things are a changin'. They tend to do such.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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So in other words, you're saying that plants warm up and cool down w/o human intervention. REALLY????? Gee, I thought we already knew that! The Earth has its own history of ice ages and warm periods. The question is whether THIS period of global warming is human-caused, not whether planets have hot and cold climatic variation. (By the way, one of the articles I linked says Mars had ice ages too, when the polar caps extended down to the latitude equivalent to Saudi Arabia or southern USA.)
And while solar flares wouldn't be expected to affect each planet to the same extent, you would think (wouldn't you?) that they would at least affect them more or less at the same time.
Oh, and, by the way, you keep saying that we have "never" observed this kind of polar melting on Mars before w/o actually bringing up any comparative data that goes back more than eight years. Also, do you have ANY data that shows that the past six years have been particularly intense in terms of sunspot activity? I'm not making strange or unusual requests- not "hundreds of years of statistics" but preferably enough to span at least two 11-year sunspot cycles - just some simple basic data to support your ideas.
Oh well- you believe what you want to believe. If you come up with some data then we can discuss it. Until then, I think this discussion is pointless and therefore closed.
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Quote:This is a bogus statement which has been covered before in another thread. You know AUraptor, just b/c you repeat the same dumb stuff over and over doesn't make it true.
It can't be overlooked that a planet which has no SUV's, no factories, etc.. is undergoing a warming process at the same time.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=8177
http://eaa.iop.org/index.cfm?action=summary&doc=eaa%2F4430%40eaa-xml
Encyclopedia of Astronomy and Astrophysics
"In the solar system, the Earth, Mars and Neptune's major satellite Triton are known to possess polar caps."
http://www.plutoportal.net/aboutplutocharon.htm
"the (Pluto) maps reveal polar caps and other high-contrast surface units. Perihelion was reached in 1989; the system is now receding from the Sun."
That both of Earth's polar caps and its glaciers are receding is not in doubt.
Mars's polar caps undergo seasonal growth and retreat. The southern polar cap may possibly be retreating, but that conclusion is not certain because it was only a one year observation.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/ mars_snow_011206-1.html
There is no evidence of any kind the north polar cap is shrinking year to year.
There is a site that indirectly indicates Triton's southern polar cap is growing. http://www.aas.org/publications/baas/ v30n3/dps98/247.htm
As for Pluto/Charon, one site indicated the polar caps grow and shrink with the seasons. However, since the Pluto is receding from the sun, I don't think the polar caps will be shrinking soon.
There is no generalized 'melting' of polar caps, whether ice, CO2, methane or nitrogen going on for the solar system as a whole. However, there IS a generalized melting of water ice on Earth.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Yes rue, if you don't agree w/it, it MUST be 'dumb stuff'.
I think we've all made clear our positions on the matter. Your use of derogatory remarks isn't going to amount to a hill of beans. Global Warming is not an issue I lie awake at night and fret about. To me, there is no issue. But by all means, knock yourself out and don't hold back. Just try to be a tad more civil about it in the future, if ya can.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
It can't be overlooked that a planet which has no SUV's, no factories, etc.. is undergoing a warming process at the same time.
Quote:The fact is, your statement IS bogus and dumb, and me calling it that was the most uncivil thing I said.
{disagree but) Just try to be a tad more civil about it in the future, if ya can.
So, if you are trying to say I can disagree as long as I don't actually say anything negative about your statements, you've pretty much claimed for yourself the role of chief ideas censor.
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Solar flares effect the earth's magnetic field which effects our weather.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:Quote:
It can't be overlooked that a planet which has no SUV's, no factories, etc.. is undergoing a warming process at the same time.Quote:The fact is, your statement IS bogus and dumb, and me calling it that was the most uncivil thing I said.
{disagree but) Just try to be a tad more civil about it in the future, if ya can.
So, if you are trying to say I can disagree as long as I don't actually say anything negative about your statements, you've pretty much claimed for yourself the role of chief ideas censor.
There's nothing 'dumb' about my statements in the least, you just don't like them. Basically, you can't handle the truth, so you invent false premises and spin the issue to suit your needs. Man is not the cause for any global warming. I know that shakes your tree house, but that's how it is.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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