More Western than a Wagon Train to the Stars - Spoiler Discussion

POSTED BY: feralwanderer
UPDATED: Thursday, June 1, 2006 11:42
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TINYTIMM

Sunday, June 16, 2002 3:45 PM

Given what we know about the Knownspace Economy of the Firefly Universe:

Space ships and star travel are cheap, easy to use and fast. Firefly class ships are as cheap and ubiquitous as C-47 ne' DC-3 cargo planes in 1946, and even more reliable and easier to maintain. Cap Mel may have received one in lieu of back pay and mustering out benefits, formally or informally.

Why do I believe this? Because Mel has one. Reavers have ships. Therefore we can also assume a lot of little colonies started on a shoestring, but aiming for self sufficiency.

Big massive colonial enterprises must also exist. If for no other reason than they can. And there are large organizations who will take a trip to avoid involvement in Galactipolitics.

Lots of Earther survivable planets are available. If there weren't, you wouldn't need a lot of little ships going places and this would be a seriously boring show.

Exceptions of course. Is there a low upper size limit on Starships? This seriously changes the economics. But the show would still be boring.

Lots of little colonies will either require a diverse industrial base in order to exist or there must be a massive all in one superfactory that can build anything and everything. Thing is the first thing you have a factory like that build is a spare.

Therefore I must conclude a diverse industrial base, but it can get very basic.

A submachinegun can be built out of steel stampings, a barrel and some decent springs, cross reference the WWII Sten gun. Less than $10 US (1943 dollars) and pieces where built and the guns assembled in many of the "Mom and Pop" er "Mum and Dad" shops in the British Empire c. 1942-1945. The more automation you can bring to the process the cheaper it gets per unit. In the first part of the last century there was a tendency to over design and overbuild weapons, cross reference M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle. The cheap SMG is a product of WWII and the involvement of industrial designers in ordnance. Catch phrase, "You wanna launch bullets and you wanna do it cheap." The STEN (UK), the M-3 Grease Gun (US) and the PPSh (USSR) were the answers. Guidelamp Division here in Cleveland OH turned out a couple of million for about $15 US a piece (1943 Dollars).

Jeff Timm
Who gets seriously longwinded sometimes.

ZICSOFT

Sunday, June 16, 2002 10:24 PM

Ok, I disagree completely, but this is turning into a decent thread, so don't be offended.

I doubt if Mal got any mustering out pay. He fought for the Confederacy/Independent Faction, not the Union/Alliance.

I dunno how cheap and ubiquitous space ships are in this future. But if they're *really* so, then there's no story here, 'cause the Alliance can use those ships to extend its authority to every inhabited planet.

OK, you can build machine guns out of old car parts. But where do you get the parts? From the nearest junkyard? Which is light-years away, in Alliance-controlled territory.

And I'm still not convinced you could easily manufacture all those brass casings.

I'm not going to pretend to have any real expertise about this. My opinions come from reading a lot of SF which tries to deal with the problem of keeping technology going at the end of a multi-parsec supply line. Heinlein's Tunnel in the Sky and that middle part of Time Enough for Love. S.M. Stirling's recent stuff. There's lots more that I can't remember offhand.

Heck you can make a case for industry falling apart simply because you don't have the critical mass of experts to keep it going. That's the premise of Earth Abides and that Terry Nation series, Survivors. In the latter, there's a scene where a character asks if anybody in the room can build a table from scratch. By which she does not mean going to the hardware store and getting tools, nails, and wood, she means cutting down the tree, making it into boards, joining them together, all using things that will still work when the hardware stores have been out of business for a century or so.

TINYTIMM

Monday, June 17, 2002 10:08 AM

Quote:
I dunno how cheap and ubiquitous space ships are in this future. But if they're *really* so, then there's no story here, 'cause the Alliance can use those ships to extend its authority to every inhabited planet.

Where will they get the man power? The only thing worse than winning a war is losing one. "Oh Great Leader we have won the WAR!! Forget rebuilding! Let's go conquer a vast wasteland for your Glory!" Now, you may get a couple of nut cases talking like that, but any government based on that kind of idea isn't gonna be around long.

Jeff Timm
Who doesn't underestimate the cost of central government.

TINYTIMM

Monday, June 17, 2002 10:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
My opinions come from reading a lot of SF which tries to deal with the problem of keeping technology going at the end of a multi-parsec supply line. Heck you can make a case for industry falling apart simply because you don't have the critical mass of experts to keep it going.

That's the point. I don't think you can base anything but a "smash and grab" strip mining colony on a supply line. It will be a very delicate operation.

Colonies are going to be self sufficient, or they won't be there. The idea that society will comfortably drop back into the late stone age, hunter gatherer economy is the stuff of bad fiction.

Jeff Timm
Who remembers the old joke, "Before white man come to this land, men hunted and fished, women did most heavy work. Stupid white man, thought he could improve on that system."

FERALWANDERER

Monday, June 17, 2002 12:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
SNIP

I doubt if Mal got any mustering out pay. He fought for the Confederacy/Independent Faction, not the Union/Alliance.

I dunno how cheap and ubiquitous space ships are in this future. But if they're *really* so, then there's no story here, 'cause the Alliance can use those ships to extend its authority to every inhabited planet.

OK, you can build machine guns out of old car parts. But where do you get the parts? From the nearest junkyard? Which is light-years away, in Alliance-controlled territory.

And I'm still not convinced you could easily manufacture all those brass casings.

I'm not going to pretend to have any real expertise about this. My opinions come from reading a lot of SF which tries to deal with the problem of keeping technology going at the end of a multi-parsec supply line. Heinlein's Tunnel in the Sky and that middle part of Time Enough for Love. S.M. Stirling's recent stuff. There's lots more that I can't remember offhand.

Heck you can make a case for industry falling apart simply because you don't have the critical mass of experts to keep it going. That's the premise of Earth Abides and that Terry Nation series, Survivors. In the latter, there's a scene where a character asks if anybody in the room can build a table from scratch. By which she does not mean going to the hardware store and getting tools, nails, and wood, she means cutting down the tree, making it into boards, joining them together, all using things that will still work when the hardware stores have been out of business for a century or so.

On ship - From what I recall of the review of the opening episode, Mal was legal until things went down during that ep, so he must appear at least to legally have it originally.

I agree on scarcity of ships. I say there are a few but most are likely controlled by major companies/governments - like ocean going ships are now - and only a bunch of smaller one's on the fringe are privately owned. I would also say there are pirates and other macoltents on the fringe where Mal's crew hangs out, making private shipping willing to take risks to ship goods, profitable.

As to guns. Well if you are scarce on ammo, you recycle your brass by having brass catchers (bags) on your smg/rifle extraction ports, and you keep your six shooter brass as well. You then only have to replace the lead, powder and percussion cap. From what I understand this is a fairly simple process for basic small caliber bullets. If you look at our own history, you will see that all the basic elements for obtaining raw materials and smelting relevant metals can be acheived with 5th century AD technology. Think King Arthur, think Roman Empire! So I am fairly confident unless a planet is short of key and what I understand are important elements for life, you will find what you need and will only need the know how. With a large enough population you should be able to increase your technology. I would argue that future computing memory would allow your 24th century all-weather palm pilot to have every bit of knowledge and instruction you would need to construct all modern weapons - and the progressive generation of industry to do this.

I also still think that problems of servicing star ships is going to jar with me if it's not handled well next to the weapons (and other) tech available to everyone. If one small star ship crew like Serenity has the know how and tools to repair their ship, all alone they would in theory be able to over time increase the technology of a colony of thousands in an earth like environment.
So unless the people they run into are barely surviving or clearly isolated from raw materials needed to increase their lot, I will find my suspense of disbelief stretching.

Jason
Sydney, Australia

TINYTIMM

Monday, June 17, 2002 9:43 PM

From the official website, the picture of Jayne with a rifle. http://www.fox.com/firefly/photos/baldwin_rifle.htm

The rifle appears to be a Blaser R93.
http://www.snipercentral.com/blaser.htm

7.62x51mm NATO (.308 Win,)6 mm Norma BR,.243 Win.,
7.5x55. or .338 Lapua Magnum. I wonder which cartridge will be around in 400 years?

Jeff Timm
Who bets on the 7.62x51mm NATO, after all the 9mm NATO, has been around since 1908.

TINYTIMM

Wednesday, June 19, 2002 12:20 AM

Back in 1856, Messers Horace Smith and Daniel B. Wesson, used the Rollin White patent (#12,648) and produced the first practical fixed cartridge revolver, the Number 1, for their .22 Caliber rimfire cartridge. During the US Civil War (and I'm not going to open that particular kettle of fish) S&W produced thousands of revolvers, in .22, .32, and .38 caliber.

In 1873 the patent ran out and Colt produced the Legendary 1873 Colt Army Revolver. Aka the Peacemaker.

(Thanks to Edward C. Ezell "Handguns of the World" ISBN 0-88029-618-6)

So, extruding brass is fairly low tech.

Jeff Timm
Who notes the .22 Short has been in constant production for 146 years.

INARASNEWTOY

Wednesday, June 19, 2002 6:46 PM

I'm a little disapointed in the weapon tech myself...

I mean this IS science fiction after all!

You can have projectile fireing weapons and get creative with them. Just look at Aliens weapons! Both the big rig mounted assult weapons and the smaller machine guns were awesome looking.

I'm sorry, after creative weapons like Farscape's Peacekeeper blasters and Pulse Rifles six shooters just don't cut it. :disapointed:

INT

One evil at a time, that's the best i can do - Farscape

INARASNEWTOY

Wednesday, June 19, 2002 6:47 PM

Double Post, bad, bad me....

TINYTIMM

Wednesday, June 19, 2002 9:33 PM

The problem with so many SF weapons is sheer sillyness. With the exception of Will Smith's Jay in MIB.

Shootists have long defined the ideal hand weapon as having the size of a .25 Automatic, the magazine capacity of a Baretta 17 rounds (now limited by law to 10 only) The hitting power of a .44 magnum and the recoil of a Hammerli Free Pistol (or nearly zero) So OK, 3 outta four ain't bad. And no weapon on Earth can blow a neat 8 foot diameter hole through both sides of a semi-trailer. Recoil was a bit much.

Most SF weapons are too big and clumsy to be of much use. As for the Jedi...never bring a knife to a gunfight!

Jeff Timm
Who understands there's this guy at a back table in the Creature Cantina just south of the Sea of Tranquility on Luna who can get me one one of those MIB hideout guns. Anybody got a saucer I can borrow?

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