questions to tie up angel

POSTED BY: est120
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 19:25
VIEWED: 9344
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CHRISISALL

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 7:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
Okay, I checked my dictionary and apparently black leopards can also be known as panthers.
So I guess saying black panther is redundant. If a leopard is black, go ahead and call it a panther. Glad we cleared this up.

Y'all would've known all this already if you only watched Zoboomofoo!

PBS has the answers Chrisisall

BATMARLOWE

Thursday, August 25, 2005 4:27 PM

Catamounts, Cougars, Mountain Lions, and Pumas are all the same animal. "Panther" is another word for Black Leopard. Whether or not there is actually such a thing as a "Panther" is matter of how much of a social contructivist you are.
"Black Panther" is redundant as all Panthers are black. But "Black Panther" sounds so cool, let's keep saying it anyway.

Wait a second. Florida Panthers aren't black. Are Florida Panthers Leopards? No hockey jokes, please.

Connor, I think, gradually gets back all his memories and he becomes very appreciative of the sacrifice Angel made for him. And I think he loves Angel for it.

Now that Connor knows he has lived two lives, I think there are places to go with the character.

I didn't realize the Fatherbot was sent by the Circle of the Black Thorne, but it makes sense to me.

We've all seen overbearing, condescening, heartless, mindfucking parents on T.V. shows before. But when was the last time you saw a main character (on regular series television) who was a protagonist pump bullets into his father without a second of hesitation before we saw Wesley do it?

Never, that's when.

I know it was a robot, but neither Wes nor we knew that at time. Psychologically speaking, Wes was murdering his father.

In an odd way it was an exhilarating moment. It certainly was a cathartic one. And my second favorite moment from ANGEL S5. The end of NFA being the first.

Anybody think Joss has father issues?

AMYEL

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 6:36 AM

Big yes to the father issues thing. There are a handful of decent mothers in the two shows, but the only father who wasn't a total bastard was Roger Burkle. And Lawrence Reilly (Connor's fake dad) seemed decent from the little bit we've seen of him. We don't know a whole lot about Ira Rosenberg, but from description he was probably just the male equivalent of his wife. Willow's parents weren't completely awful; just frequently absentee. Too bad Xander's parents couldn't have left him the hell alone more often. But generally, Jossverse dads are either abusive or not present.

And Angel as a dad, well... I think the saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" basically sums him up.

BATMARLOWE

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 8:09 AM

Hadn't thought about Fred's dad--good call. But he's the only one. Lawrence Riley is, as you said, a fake dad. I agree that we were to assume Willow's father was as bad as her mother. How 'bout Cordelia's father, huh? A white collar criminal. Don't forget Ted (although he was neither Buffy's father nor an actual person he was a father figure). Holtz was a good father in his own time but in regard to Connor ultimately he was manipulating him. But I think Holtz did have some geniune affection for him.

Angel is an interesting case. He certainly loved Connor. They never got a chance to cut through the B.S. and connect. Until the end of season 5, that is. My gut feeling is on balance, Angel goes in the "positive" column.

FIREFLY. The only father we see is Simon's and River's. I think he's one for the "negative" column.

The portayal of Buffy's father has always intrigued me. We were told (a lot) what bastard he is, but it was all off-camera. We only see him for real once. We first see him as Buffy's nightmare (a scene that always tears my heart out), but it's not real. Later that episode he shows up for real and he's a good guy. And it's the only time he gets some solid screen time.

We see him again in when Willow's walking around in Buffy's head. We can assume Buffy's memory of Joyce and Hank, is it? coming home with baby Dawn is genuine (or the rewritten-by-monks genuine) and while he doesn't do much in that scene--he certainly comes across as positive. The next time is Buffy in the asylum which is not real, but again he's portrayed positively.

So we see him 4 times. Two of them aren't real but only once is he cast in a negative light and that's one of the times when it's not real.

We are told he's bad but the few times we see him he's good. Always thought that was an interesting contradiction. That and the writers were doing one of those things writers shouldn't do--which is saying it instead of showing it.

It's also interesting that--assuming Joss does have father issues--his chosen profession is the same as his father's (and his grandfather's). Ironic, eh?

AMYEL

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 2:47 PM

Hank was okay when we saw him, but he became a completely absentee father. (btw, you forgot another Hank appearance, in When She Was Bad). Buffy couldn't find him when Joyce died. He had moved off to Spain with his secretary and Buffy didn't have a correct phone number for him. That's a "bad thing." But then in season 6 the Scoobies were worried that Hank would take Dawn away if he figured out something was wrong by talking to the BuffyBot. So maybe they had had some contact with him recently if they thought that he would actually call.

Buffy had gone to visit her father semi-regularly up to season four, but then he disappeared. It could have just been a midlife crisis thing that made him disconnect himself from his daughters' lives and try something new with the secretary.

BATMARLOWE

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 4:09 PM

Really, he's in "When She Was Bad"? I'm gonna have to check that out. I'm not trying to defend Hank, I'm just saying that all the bad stuff we know happened off-camera whereas when he actually saw him (or some representation of him) he came across as a decent guy. But I accept what they said about him off-camera as being the case and that he definitely goes in the negative column.

But I also suspect they made him a bad guy because if they didn't then he's an obvious solution after Joyce dies. And they needed a reason to keep him out of the picture.

I also felt a confrontation between Buffy and Hank would have been good to see. But post-"Normal Again". If we saw a bad Hank then it would have taken away from the ambiguity of "Normal Again", where we see a good Hank.

But, yeah Hank is definitely on list of the bad dads in the world of Joss Whedon.

AMYEL

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 5:22 PM

Yeah, Hank was in quite a bit of When She Was Bad. She spent the whole summer with her father in Los Angeles. So that's why Xander and Willow were so freaked out by Buffy's behavior since they hadn't seen her at all in months. Anyways, Hank was there to drop her off or something. I just remember the conversation between Hank and Joyce about Buffy's weird mood.

JACQUI

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 5:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
FIREFLY. The only father we see is Simon's and River's. I think he's one for the "negative" column.

But we do hear about Kaylee's dad. "My daddy says I have a natural talent!" (Out of Gas) and later (Objects In Space) where she refers to being caught with that boy. Yes, she claims that her daddy whupped her hard, but she doesn't sound entirely too traumatised by this, (more that she knew sleeping with fourteen year old boys with genetic abnormalities was wrong and she deserved the whuppin'), which I think we can mark him - along with Roger Burkle - into the good dad column.

Which makes 2 fathers in three series, 13 seasons of television.

Joss had Daddy Issues (maybe he needs Daddy tissues... sorry... Austin moment... ahem).

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

BATMARLOWE

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 7:25 PM

Just watched that scene, Amyel. And he really comes across as a good guy in that one too. I guess in a nutshell what I'm trying to say is making Hank a bad guy after what we'd seen onscreen felt contrived and convenient for the creators rather than organic.

But since they said it soooo often, we have to accept it. So Hank's in the bad dad column.

Jacqui: Kaylee's dad does sound supportive and they did let her go follow her dream. Not crazy about that whuppin', though. Still one for the "good dad" list.

And as I said, Angel...it's arguable either way but he wanted so badly his relationship with Connor to work out, that I'd put him on the "good" list. So that's 3 for me.

Oh, and Angel's dad. There's another one for the bad list.

Makes ya wonder how Joss will deal with these issues (because he MUST be aware of them) when it comes to the raising of his own children.

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