The answer to Evolution vs. Intelligent Design
POSTED BY: BadgersHat
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 22:38
VIEWED: 15240
PAGE 8 of 11
Princess Leia? I intend to but not until we've been properly introduced...
Sorry, couldn't resist...
*Returns to letting chrisisall do the funny*
Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Your friend's father may or may not have seen a ghost. If you base your conclusion that he did not see one on an assumption that ghosts do not exist, then you're not dealing with logic, but with the limits of your belief system. If however, you base your conclusion on evidence that his dad was lying or confused by something, then you might have a logical argument. There are a lot of details to the story that you're leaving out. I get the feeling that you don't believe in ghosts. Do you?
HKCavalier
There's that phrase 'belief system' creeping in again where it doesn't belong. I'll try and be clearer still: if someone came up to me tomorrow with compelling and reasoned arguments that support the existence of ghosts/paranormal phenomena etc. and backed them up with evidence that was not purely anecdotal, then I'd be more than happy to believe them. I do not use the word 'believe' in the sense of having faith in someone or something. As I said before, I'm not stating categorically that paranormal phenomena don't exist.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
In a strange way a lot of what you've said makes alot of sense to me.
One of the principles of my psychic work is that a psychic is unable to tell you anything that you don't already know is true; all we psychics do is confirm and bring out information that is already available to you. This is a built-in safeguard against charlatans, by the way; if what someone tells you doesn't ring true, it's probably not. On the other hand, you may not be particularly honest with yourself and so miss the truth of a thing--but still, you get to decide what to believe and what not to. We're only ready to hear what we're ready to hear (our readiness is the result of a whole developemental process which is unique to each individual). Be that as it may, on some level you know these things, we all know these things, but we have errected cyclopean systems of denial and self-distrust to keep this knowledge out of circulation. Why? Fear. Fear of our own power, to be precise. I think Nelson Mandela said it best:
Quote:
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It is not just in some of us; it is in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I think that I see the supernatural in a different way to many people. For instance I would see your previous example with your girlfriend being attacked as maybe some rogue element of her own psyche manifesting something physical.
I assume the ussual interpretation could be that what attacked her was some sort of devil or evil spirit.
I dunno...
Ah, but see, you do know, Citizen. For those "in the know" your opposing interpretations are both understood to be true at the same time. You can find this information in the primary Goëtic text, The Key of Solomon. (Goëtia is the branch of ritual magic principally concerned with demonology and demon control. Oh, my lordy, I'm footnoting--make it stop!) The inner western traditions have understood for centuries the phrase "as above, so below" to mean that the outside world is a mirror to our inner world, and vicy-vercy.
(Straying back to the original topic of the thread for a moment, the evident process of evolution is the external manifestation of the inner process we call creativity--hey, I just defined God: God is creativity.)
Put another way, demons can be thought of similarly to how we understand psychotropic drugs. We know that the only reason LSD etc. work is that they mimic existing brain chemistry so closely. Interestingly, in practice, demons tend to manifest physically or externally only when they are losing control and being expelled. Most of the time they function exactly like a personal psychological compulsions, so exactly in fact, that that is exactly what they are.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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HK,
I have a question for you, tho I realize the answer may be that I am not what I appear to be and think I am.
How is it that I make lights turn off? Parking-lot lights, street lights and the like. I walk close by and, bhhzzzzt, they go out. It happens most when I am concentrating on something from the day, usually a knotty technical or union problem, or a conflicted conversation. Sometimes I joke to myself - well, it's just the luminosity of my extremely pale skin reading as a bright light to the sensor. But I still wonder, why .... And I admit, it happens enough that it does perturb me somewhat.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
How is it that I make lights turn off? Parking-lot lights, street lights and the like. I walk close by and, bhhzzzzt, they go out. It happens most when I am concentrating on something from the day, usually a knotty technical or union problem, or a conflicted conversation.
Hey Rue,
That's an easy one (and you practically answered the question yourself, naturally). Anger. Highly focused yet powerfully suppressed anger. Anger shoved far far away and out. Which is not to imply that you don't also express your anger, just that you got a heck of a lot more of it than you might realize. (How's your blood pressure? Keep an eye on that for me, will ya?
) Something to do with the electromagnetic field of the body, aka your aura. I know a couple women, good friends of mine, who have the same tendency. One of them tends to break electrical devices pretty regularly as well. For whatever reason this sort of thing is most common in women and it can be particularly intense in teenage girls (one of the paranormal side effects of patriarchal conditioning, perhaps). Much of what gets called poltergeist activity--stuff falling off of walls, lights suddenly going out, furniture thumping around, small objects being moved about the house--can be traced back to the suppressed fury of a teenage girl living in the house. It's actually not too far off from the demon-as-rogue-element-of-your-own-psyche that Citizen mentioned.You ever see the film Olivier, Olivier? The daughter in that movie has this affect and the film goes a long way toward showing exactly how she developed it. Very remarkable film.
And Rue, I mean it about the blood pressure.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Briefly excerpted: please note that the self-stated goal of the Discovery Institute (the machine behind ID) is to abolish science as we know it and replace it with traditional Christian beliefs.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/wedge.html
The "Wedge Document"
NOTE FROM LENNY FLANK: The Wedge Document is an internal memorandum from the Discovery Institute (the leading proponent of Intelligent Designer "Theory") that was leaked to the Internet in 1999. The Discovery Institute later admitted to its authenticity. Since then, Discovery Institute hasn't talked very much about the document, or the strategy it outlines.
The Wedge Document is reproduced here, in full.
CENTER FOR THE RENEWAL OF SCIENCE & CULTURE
INTRODUCTION
The proposition that human beings are created in the image of God is one of the bedrock principles on which Western civilization was built. Yet a little over a century ago, this cardinal idea came under wholesale attack by intellectuals drawing on the discoveries of modern science. This materialistic conception of reality eventually infected virtually every area of our culture, from politics and economics to literature and art.
The cultural consequences of this triumph of materialism were devastating. Materialists denied the existence of objective moral standards ... undermined personal responsibility ... and spawned a virulent strain of utopianism.
Discovery Institute's Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture seeks nothing less than the overthrow of materialism and its cultural legacies.
FIVE YEAR STRATEGIC PLAN SUMMARY
We are convinced that in order to defeat materialism, we must cut it off at its source. That source is scientific materialism.
Phase I is the essential component of everything that comes afterward. In Phase I we are supporting vital witting (writing ?) and research at the sites most likely to crack the materialist edifice.
Phase II. We seek to cultivate and convince influential individuals in pnnt and broadcast media, as well as think tank leaders, scientists and academics, congressional staff, talk show hosts, college and seminary presidents and faculty, future talent and potential academic allies. (The) combination of scientific and scholarly expertise and media and political connections makes the Wedge unique, and also prevents it from being "merely academic." Alongside a focus on influential opinion-makers, we also seek to build up a popular base of support among our natural constituency, namely, Chnstians.
Phase III. Once our research and writing have had time to mature, and the public prepared for the reception of design theory, we will move toward direct confrontation with the advocates of materialist science through challenge conferences in significant academic settings. We will also pursue possible legal assistance in response to resistance to the integration of design theory into public school science curricula.
GOALS
* To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
* To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and hurnan beings are created by God.
******
NOTE THAT THERE IS NOTHING HERE FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO EXPAND SCIENCE INTO AN INQUIRY OF THE RARELY OBSERVED. IT IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO EXPAND SCIENCE, BUT TO ABOLISH IT AND REPLACE IT WITH CHRISTIANTIY.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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These are generally lengthy articles from which I culled short excerpts. They may not be active anymore, you might find secondary sources by searching on extended quotes.
While some scientists (even rarer prominent ones) believe in God, they rarely confuse religion with science:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/national/23believers.html
Scientists Speak Up on Mix of God and Science
By CORNELIA DEAN
"It (faith) should not be a taboo subject, but frankly it often is in scientific circles," said Francis S. Collins, who directs the National Human Genome Research Institute and who speaks freely about his Christian faith.
Although some scientists embrace religious faith, they also embrace science as it has been defined for centuries. ... This belief in science - that scientific ideas must be provisional and capable of being overturned by evidence - sets them apart from those who endorse creationism or its doctrinal cousin, intelligent design, both of which depend on the existence of a supernatural force.
Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company
ID proponents attack what they think are weaknesses in evolutionary theory, but the theory is far more fruitful than ID, which so far has failed to advance ANY testable proposals:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/22/national/22design.html?th&emc=th
In Explaining Life's Complexity, Darwinists and Doubters Clash
By KENNETH CHANG
The proponents of intelligent design, a school of thought that some have argued should be taught alongside evolution in the nation's schools, say that the complexity and diversity of life go beyond what evolution can explain.
It is an argument that appeals to many Americans of faith.
But mainstream scientists say that the claims of intelligent design run counter to a century of research supporting the explanatory and predictive power of Darwinian evolution.
The theory has unlocked many of the mysteries of the natural world. For example, by studying the skeletons of whales, evolutionary scientists have been able to trace the history of their descent from small-hoofed land mammals. They made predictions about what the earliest water-dwelling whales might look like. And, in 1994, paleontologists reported discovering two such species, with many of the anatomical features that scientists had predicted.
But nowhere has evolution been more powerful than in its prediction that there must be a means to pass on information from one generation to another. Darwin did not know the biological mechanism of inheritance, but the theory of evolution required one.
The discovery of DNA, the sequencing of the human genome, the pinpointing of genetic diseases and the discovery that a continuum of life from a single cell to a human brain can be detected in DNA are all a result of evolutionary theory.
........
Dr. Behe (ID proponent) said that if he was correct, then the E. coli in Dr. Lenski's lab would evolve in small ways but never change in such a way that the bacteria would develop entirely new abilities.
In fact, such an ability seems to have developed. Dr. Lenski said his experiment was not intended to explore this aspect of evolution, but nonetheless, "We have recently discovered a pretty dramatic exception, one where a new and surprising function has evolved," he said.
ID has been more successful as a well-funded political movement of conservative Christians than it has been as a science:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/21/national/21evolve.html?th&emc=th
Politicized Scholars Put Evolution on the Defensive
By JODI WILGOREN
SEATTLE - When President Bush plunged into the debate over the teaching of evolution this month, saying, "both sides ought to be properly taught," he seemed to be reading from the playbook of the Discovery Institute, the conservative think tank here that is at the helm of this newly volatile frontier in the nation's culture wars.
Mainstream scientists reject the notion that any controversy over evolution even exists. But Mr. Bush e
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Didn't have time to read the entire thread, it's too late here. Couple comments.
@CITIZEN:
"""Quantum Mechanics allows for some pretty strange things to happen, farseeing, telepathy etc"""
QM says no such thing.
@HK:
People don't believe in ghosts, etc because it isn't a repeatable event nor has it been documented in any reliable way. If that changes, so will peoples minds.
Please note that I'm not saying that these things, don't exist nor am I saying that they do. I'm just saying that current documentation states that there is nor reasonable evidence for stated that they do exist. Also, I have had a couple "experiences" in my day. But, I do accept the possibility that there is another explination for them.
And yes, the Aboriginal religion is quite pretty. I enjoyed learning about it in my world religion course.
And now, sleep.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Thanks for the links Rue. If there is consistency about right-wing arguments, it is:
They are not open-minded. Don't imagine for a second that the right wing is interested in an exchange of views. Arguments are always part of a larger strategy.
They are not spontaneous, grass-roots movements. While they may take advantage of "popular" notions (like the widespread gullibility of the US population) they're initiated from the top.
They're well-funded. Corportations like Coors spent a fortune setting up right-wing think-tanks twenty years ago, and this is the result.
One of the reasons why I'm "all science all the time" - and pretty harsh about religion- is because the US never really hears the "other side". They get religion from the pulpit, and they get "Touched by God" or "Ghost Whisperer" from TV, or some sort of "moderate" scientist apologizing that while he performs science he ALSO believes in God. The US is so unused to the notion of testing ideas against reality that they are vulnerable to snake-oil salesmen of every stripe, including corporations, Bush&Co, and televangelists. It's no accident that in this nation where religiosity exceeds all other developed nations and matches that of the Middle East, brand-name loyality is also highest. All of this stems from a severe lack of critical thinking. So while I respect and enjoy our open-minded discussions here, I also think the left-of-center hasn't a CLUE about how the right-wing operates. The left wants to respect and understand reality. The right really doesn't give a crap about the truth- all they want is control. By the way, I think the only thing that's pretty freakin obvious about Badgershat's opener is its fatal logical flaw.
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I'm surprised you got the gist so well with what I quoted. As I mentioned, the articles were much longer, filled with convincing detail.
And the sum is this: 'Intelligent design' is not the issue. It's merely one tool - a wedge - the religious right has selected for their war on civil society.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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