The answer to Evolution vs. Intelligent Design
POSTED BY: BadgersHat
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 22:38
VIEWED: 15240
PAGE 7 of 11
Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
If you re-read my post you should see that I was careful to word it in a manner that I hoped would not offend you, since you'd mentioned previously to have had experiences of the paranormal. I'd appreciate it if you offered me the same courtesy and didn't make sweeping - and offensive - assumptions about my character.
Hey, Grounded, I appreciate you writing me, even though I was rude to you. I see that you did not intend to offend me with your post. Only problem is, you really did. On the one hand you seem to credit that I have had paranormal experiences (
) and yet in your previous post you said that it is not logical to believe people who make such claims (
). I presumed that you consider yourself a logical person, so what you were saying in essence, after sifting through your nonconfrontational abstractions of "people" this and "people" that, is that you think it's logical to disbelieve me. So after several thoughtful posts explaining the logic of my position, I didn't take your dismissal very kindly. I certainly could have been more diplomatic about it, but I was feeling a little besieged.You know, if you have to carefully word a post not to offend someone, chances are they'll know what you're doing, and feel offended anyway.
Getting back to the very intelligent and yet evolving conversation at hand (sorry, couldn't help myself): to me it is perfectly logical to believe folks that claim to be abducted by aliens because of the obvious traumatic nature of these experiences which they describe. I've talked to some people who "claim" to be abducted and it's not cool or pretty or a badge of honor, it's a really disgusting and disturbing memory that they dearly wish were not true. I've worked with ordinary rape survivors as well (I am one), and the experiences seem to have a lot in common. People do not tend to make up rape stories. Certainly, some do, but such antisocial individuals are in the extreme minority of rape cases. These kinds of experiences scar a person; the last thing a rape survivor wants is to be a rape survivor. It would be illogical for me to dismiss their claims without very good reason.
In my experience, people don't lie unless there's something to be gained by lying. Those people who make up outrageous adventures to amaze their friends and members of the press are usually pretty easy to spot.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
In my experience, people don't lie unless there's something to be gained by lying. Those people who make up outrageous adventures to amaze their friends and members of the press are usually pretty easy to spot.
So, not to be flippant or a smart-ass, but how do you spot them?
Or, more generally, what kinds of stories would you be unlikely to believe? Are we unreasonable to ever disbelieve claims of the paranormal?
Again, I'm not trying to poke at you here, HK, but I'm curious where you draw the line. You seem to be offended that people doubt claims of the paranormal in general. I'm not sure that's fair.
Granted, if you've experienced something that people will discount on the face of it, I can see how that would be very frustrating. But can you really blame people for assuming such claims are likely to have naturalistic explanation?
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
In my experience, people don't lie unless there's something to be gained by lying. Those people who make up outrageous adventures to amaze their friends and members of the press are usually pretty easy to spot.
So, not to be flippant or a smart-ass, but how do you spot them?
Couple things: Sergeant, hey, I can tell you're sincere and curious about something of which you don't have a thorough-going understanding. First of all, 'cause you say so. More than once. You're direct. Mostly consistent, but not overly so. It's stuff like that which tells me a person is being honest. Beyond that, I have found that I have a sensitivity to sound. This is more or less in the area of intuition, but lies often have an odd, telling "sound" to them.
Are you aware of the phenomenon of reversed speech? If you play a recording of a person's voice in a heightened state of emotion backwards, very often you will be able to discern very clear words and phrases, usually when they contradict what the forward speech is saying. I had a neighbor who was hugely into this stuff and he played some of Bill Clinton's testimony during the Monika Lewinsky scandal for me. I remember hearing Clinton's voice, utterly dejected and defeated saying, "I'm sorry." It was the saddest most pathetic "I'm sorry" I've ever heard. Interestingly, people have found that when you reverse the "speech" of preverbal children you will often get fully articulated sentences. I heard a recording of a child playing with his father while he took a bath. He was just making baby noises, but when it was played backwards I heard clear as a bell, "Get my ball, Robert." It was uncanny. One reversal I heard which was fascinating was a recording of a man yelling, "There's a fire!" in a dentist office where there was, you know, a fire. When the recording was reversed, the word "FIRE!" was repeated twice. Very interesting stuff.
I know, I know! It sounds really improbable, but I was there. Most of the time when you play a recorded voice backward, you get the meaningless backward sounds that you'd expect. But, apparently, in moments of intense emotion or dishonesty something of the truth is imprinted in the voice; something the subconscious mind hears. Sensitive people, children and animals seem to pick up on this stuff.
Quote:
Are we unreasonable to ever disbelieve claims of the paranormal?
Of course not. People make stuff up all the time.
Here's a thing: the enemy of intuition is desire. If you want something to be true, it's a lot harder to get any reliable intuitive information about it. That's why it's generally difficult for psychics to read themselves; there's too much at stake to get a clear picture most of the time. Belief systems have a lot to do with the desire of the believers. So if you don't want paranormal phenomena to be real, it will be harder to discern if any of it is. Conversely, if you do want paranormal phenomena to be real, that too will cloud your judgment. A lot of people I know dearly want this kind of stuff to be real, they dearly want it to happen to them and they will believe any damn thing.
In reality, everything has its upside and its downside. Nobody I know who really deals with nonhuman consciouses or clairvoyance or telepathy is getting high off the stuff. Like everything in life, it ain't all it's cracked up to be.
Quote:
Again, I'm not trying to poke at you here, HK, but I'm curious where you draw the line. You seem to be offended that people doubt claims of the paranormal in general. I'm not sure that's fair.
Whenever I have a really profound psychic insight, or experience a really intense manifestation like that thing that attacked my girlfriend, a part of my mind really thinks I must be going insane. The materialistic/literalist/logic-obsessed part of my mind that thinks it's the only thing keeping me alive and sane wants very
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
HK:
With your obvious knowledge of this subject I was wondering if I can run something by you.
I mentioned elsewhere in this thread I believe that I have had what would be considered supernatural experiences, although nothing on the scale you've experienced.
I've seen documentries where people have had dreams that have come true. They are almost exclusivly of the very open to interpretation type. I beleive one mans was along the lines of dogs running through the woods, which apparently predicted a plane crash (I saw the program sometime ago and my memory may not be perfect tho).
The dreams I have had, and continue to have are very different, they are precise, like memories of an event, but more vivid and before it actually happens. When I was younger the period of time was measured in years, but the interval between dream and event has shortened.
I remember one particular instance, where I had a dream of myself walking across a concreted area toward a group of people, and then I felt a strong pain on the side of my head, I didn't recognise the place or people, but somehow knew that it wasn't just a dream. Years later, after I had started secondary school, I was leaving a class room and walking across the concreted area of the playground toward some of the teachers at my school. I was then hit on the side of my head by a stray Basketball.
The big thing is that most of these 'premonitions' are of fairly mundane events, and that I can control, to a degree, my actions/thoughts during the dream itself, but not during the event.
I realise this doesn't lend anything to the discussion but I really never had the chance to speak to someone who has experinced something 'in the same vein' as this. I was wondering if you can shed any light on this at all, or at least point me in any directions, you know. Just interested is all...
Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Hey, Grounded, I appreciate you writing me, even though I was rude to you. I see that you did not intend to offend me with your post. Only problem is, you really did. On the one hand you seem to credit that I have had paranormal experiences (
Ok I'll try and clarify by means of example. A friend of mine lives along the street and his father has a background in engineering. His father also claims to have seen a ghost. Now I've always respected him, and I still do, but I don't believe he saw a ghost. Whatever he saw, in that moment, I'm sure it felt totally and completely real to him for his brain to interpret things the way it did.
Now from what you're saying, you're telling me that, because I respect him, I should believe his claim to be the most likely explanation?
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
(At this point I feel the need to politely apologize to BadgersHat for hijacking his thread. Please feel free, BH, to redirect the thread any time.)
Greetings Citizen! The kind of documentary you're talking about is all too common. Why these documentarians can't seem to find better subjects than they do, I've never understood.
All kinds of people I know have dreams like yours. I've had dreams like yours. That quality of memory that you mention really rings a bell; that odd feeling that you're remembering something that hasn't happened yet.
The apparent triviality of the typical premonition also rings true for me. I once was really downhearted about getting some shoes. I kinda hate the traditional male uniform of blues and browns and black; the ever-lovin' sameness of all menswear departments in this country. So I kinda hate shopping. Anyway, I needed some shoes and just wasn't finding what I wanted in any stores. So I had a dream where I went into a shoe store and they had all these bizarre moccasins with neon lights sewn into them that blinked and flashed. They were outrageous. Back in the corner of the store though, they had these other moccasins that were more like boots and they were plain and very well made with rubberized soles, kind of futuristic and primitive at once (kinda like me
). Next day, I'm out shopping, there's a tiny shoe store with a huge going out of business sign (without the sign I would never have noticed it). It was their last day. Anyway, at the back of the store, in a big box that they were already packing things into I found a pair of the exact shoe from my dream. They were made by Nike, of all things! They were literally, the shoes of my dreams!
Of course, my first thought after buying them and leaving the store was, "How is it that I can manifest freakin' shoes, but the rest of my life is such a mess? Why can't I manifest a lasting relationship, or a good job, or a landlord that isn't a total nut?" Etc.
The best answer that I've come up with is that we order reality in some pretty erroneous ways. These premonitions, deja vu, that kind of thing aren't so subject intensive as we assume them to be; but are markers on the way, like landmarks that, for whatever reason, call attention to themselves to help us navigate through our lives. You know the drill, "Go fifty miles until you get to the tree that looks like it's got a big face on it." The tree itself may be fascinating but the traveler who knows where she's going is naturally more focused on the journey. Thing is, we've all but forgotten the road, our purpose and our goals, so when these psychic landmarks come into view, we tend not to have a clue what they mean. At least not on a conscious level.
On what I'd term a superconscious level, they're part of a feedback loop of some kind. These moments mark when we have realized some part of "the plan." These moments are on "the map." What I've taught myself to do at such moments is to be mindful of where my attention is, what thoughts occur the moment before; because the thoughts, what we're thinking, what our conscious purpose at that moment is--these things are cues to what we're really here for; these are moments when our superconscious purpose and our conscious lives resolve into a single reality.
You might be able to remember your train of thought as you crossed to those teachers, what you wanted to say to them, or what particular mission you were on that day, or how you felt. Sometimes we have a fleeting thought that triggers these moments and we lose it under all the incredulous noise our minds spew to cope with so much meaning (it's this constant white noise of disbelief in the face of meaning that keeps so many people from realizing their true destiny; the presence of nonhuman consciousness tends to make us all at least a little hysterical). These events are clues to our higher purpose, clues to where we're really headed in this life. Or so I've come to understand.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Ok I'll try and clarify by means of example. A friend of mine lives along the street and his father has a background in engineering. His father also claims to have seen a ghost. Now I've always respected him, and I still do, but I don't believe he saw a ghost. Whatever he saw, in that moment, I'm sure it felt totally and completely real to him for his brain to interpret things the way it did.
Now from what you're saying, you're telling me that, because I respect him, I should believe his claim to be the most likely explanation?
No, I'm not saying that you should believe your friend's dad, only that disbelieving him may not be the most logical reaction (of course, on the other hand, it might be).
Um, Grounded, we seem to be at cross purposes, you're certainly misunderstanding what I meant. You told me that disbelief is logical in and of itself. I was trying to refute that.
Your friend's father may or may not have seen a ghost. If you base your conclusion that he did not see one on an assumption that ghosts do not exist, then you're not dealing with logic, but with the limits of your belief system. If however, you base your conclusion on evidence that his dad was lying or confused by something, then you might have a logical argument. There are a lot of details to the story that you're leaving out. I get the feeling that you don't believe in ghosts. Do you?
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
HK, once a few years back I had a kind of 'waking dream', where I was apparently awake, but with my eyes closed. And then the view of the room faded in; I was intrigued, you see, my eyes were still closed. I looked around the room, a little amused, thinking I must still be asleep, dreaming...until I opened my eyes fully awake, and was now seeing what I had already been seeing with my eyes closed. Weird. I closed my eyes and layed back down, and suddenly I was seeing, and feeling that I was standing in cold rain, my feet in mud to my ankles. I was standing next to what appeared to be a battering ram on wheels, or maybe on a big cart. My companions were Asian, in similar brown garb, like poor, dirty, rag-tag soldiers. The emotions of defeat and disgrace filled me. And a single thought flew through my mind, " Might never see home again".
I opened my eyes, fully awake. And somewhat unsettled.
I feel that I was experiencing a flash of a previous (and possibly partial) life my energy had been connected to.
No funny on this one, what do you think?
Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
In a strange way a lot of what you've said makes alot of sense to me.
I can't remember my train of thought for any but the most recent of events, but the recent ones focus largly on where I am, where I'm going and sometimes, to a degree how this fits in with a group of people I met not to long ago. Which is why I say it makes sense to me as my train of thought at the time seems to be me thinking about where my life has come from, and where it is going.
My thought processes then move on to trying to consiously change what is happening half-way through the event, something I consitently fail to do I may add. Though I think that has more to do with my desire to see if I can change things, as I said I seem able to change things during my dreams, but not during the event.
Anyway, thanks HK for your reply, you have given me a great deal to think about and I will endeavour to look more into this subject.
I think that I see the supernatural in a different way to many people. For instance I would see your previous example with your girlfriend being attacked as maybe some rogue element of her own psyche manifesting something physical.
I assume the ussual interpretation could be that what attacked her was some sort of devil or evil spirit.
I dunno...
Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I sense the good in you, FLF. The Patriarchal Anglo-Saxon belief systems have not driven it from you fully...
Originally posted by fantasticlaughingfairy:
I'm not going to go into a whole feminist rant, but I just dislike Genesis anyway.
Luke Chrisiswalker
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME