So, Just What *Is* Torture?
POSTED BY: perfessergee
UPDATED: Monday, August 29, 2005 10:55
VIEWED: 11212
PAGE 5 of 10
CHRISISALL wrote:
"Wow R1Z, them is a WHOLE lot of words there for policy-makers to ignore.
Luckily, there's only a few bad apples in the Pentagon, and Langly, and the White House, and Abu-whatzis etc."
I believe the phrases OUR policy makers used were, "quaint" and "irrelevant".
Remember that when your sons and daughters come home from the next war scarred and minus their toenails.
To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
They make psychologists get psychoanalyzed, but the ones who make policy on torture don't have to get tortured, that seem right to you?
They ought to get cut on...
Not all's fair...Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
How hard can this be? the U.N. Convention Against Torture, and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (in force as of June 26, 1987) says:
For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
So now all you gotta do is figure out what "severe" means, and what "lawful sanctions" are. Well...maybe it's not so easy.
Let's see. Physical pain. Some folks pass out getting a flu shot. Others practice piercing and scarification as a hobby, or S&M as sex play. How do you tell what's severe physical pain to any particular individual?
Mental suffering. For some folk, just being alive is torture, hence suicides. Others are more toughminded. Again, one size does not fit all.
And there's still the situational ethic from the potential torturer's side. What would you do to one person to save a thousand? Does the fact that you torture the one and save the thousand reduce the badness compared with torturing the one to find out how to kill a thousand?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Idi Amin had two prisoners - a husband and wife - brought naked in from of him and said - have sex with each other and if it pleases me nothing will happen to you. So they did.
US troops had naked Iraqi men brought in front of them and said - masturbate each other and we won't beat you. So they did.
To all those who say it's only pranks, tell me - what's the difference?
Amin got to keep being ruler of Uganda for quite a while longer, while committing many other more severe atrocities, including cannibalism, while the US troops went to jail? Seems like a pretty big difference, that our system works. People do wrong, they go to jail, not dine on long pig.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Geezer, you missed the point, on purpose, as usual. Was what Idi Amin did torture? Was what the US soldiers did mere pranks? THAT was the question.
And your answer is ... ?
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by R1Z:
Remember that when your sons and daughters come home from the next war scarred and minus their toenails.
My sons won't be going unless I'm right there with them. And that will only happen if it's actually to defend our country.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I dunno Geezer, seems pretty clear to me.
For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means ANY ACT by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or MENTAL, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is INFLICTED BY by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a PUBLIC OFFICIAL or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
And your desperate focus on the term torture completely misses all the other things that are expressly forbidden, like degrading treatment.
Your excuse for ALL those things is ... ?
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Geez, man, wtf? You posted the answer to all your questions right here:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
...the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.
Torture exists in a very well defined context. It's not just any pain, any misery, but pain and misery inflicted for the reasons underlined above.
Quote:
Let's see. Physical pain. Some folks pass out getting a flu shot. Others practice piercing and scarification as a hobby, or S&M as sex play. How do you tell what's severe physical pain to any particular individual?
Total red herring. It's not the level of pain, but the purpose and agency of its infliction that determines an act of torture.
Quote:
Mental suffering. For some folk, just being alive is torture, hence suicides. Others are more toughminded. Again, one size does not fit all.
There's no one torturing these people! Hence: not torture. You and Anthony enjoy disconnecting torture from its real context and refit it to some PG-rated, everyday passtime. What, you been dipping into the Foucault again?
Quote:
And there's still the situational ethic from the potential torturer's side. What would you do to one person to save a thousand? Does the fact that you torture the one and save the thousand reduce the badness compared with torturing the one to find out how to kill a thousand?
Yes, and how many terrorists can dance on the head of a pin? Your hypothetical is absurd. No such circumstance has ever existed, nor is it ever likely to exist. You just get your jollies imagining this kind of crap.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
"GEEZER wrote:
How hard can this be? the U.N. Convention Against Torture, and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (in force as of June 26, 1987) says:
For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
So now all you gotta do is figure out what "severe" means, and what "lawful sanctions" are."
I'll take a shot at that "lawful sanctions"--
Lawful sanctions are those imposed by a duly constituted lawful authority i.e. court system, after preserving the accused's right to due process, right to confront his accuser, his right to counsel, and his right to appeal.
Per the Geneva Conventions:
1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons: . . .
(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
. . .
Article 5
The present Convention shall apply to the persons referred to in Article 4 from the time they fall into the power of the enemy and until their final release and repatriation.
Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.
. . .
Article 84
. . .
In no circumstances whatever shall a prisoner of war be tried by a court of any kind which does not offer the essential guarantees of independence and impartiality as generally recognized, and, in particular, the procedure of which does not afford the accused the rights and means of defence provided for in Article 105.
. . .
Article 87
Prisoners of war may not be sentenced by the military authorities and courts of the Detaining Power to any penalties except those provided for in respect of members of the armed forces of the said Power who have committed the same acts.
. . .
Collective punishment for individual acts, corporal punishments, imprisonment in premises without daylight and, in general, any form of torture or cruelty, are forbidden.
II. Disciplinary sanctions
Article 89
The disciplinary punishments applicable to prisoners of war are the following:
1. A fine which shall not exceed 50 per cent of the advances of pay and working pay which the prisoner of war would otherwise receive under the provisions of Articles 60 and 62 during a period of not more than thirty days.
2. Discontinuance of privileges granted over and above the treatment provided for by the present Convention.
3. Fatigue duties not exceeding two hours daily.
4. Confinement.
The punishment referred to under (3) shall not be applied to officers.
In no case shall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Geezer, you missed the point, on purpose, as usual. Was what Idi Amin did torture? Was what the US soldiers did mere pranks? THAT was the question.
And your answer is ... ?
Well, first of all I didn't say it was just pranks. It was at the very least degrading behavior that went beyond the pale of legality, as the jailing of the perpetrators (the American ones, at least) shows. This seemed obvious to me, but I forget you just wish to argue.
Second, given that both situations are torture, the way the perps are handled is important. It provides an indication of whether or not the perps' country and government approve of or disapprove of their actions. It's as impossible to pre-emptively prevent all illegal actions by jailors and interregators, just like it's impossible to prevent all murders at home. The response is key. Let it happen without punishment or go after those who cross the line.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME