More Western than a Wagon Train to the Stars - Spoiler Discussion

POSTED BY: feralwanderer
UPDATED: Thursday, June 1, 2006 11:42
VIEWED: 16968
PAGE 4 of 6

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 NEXT PAGE

FERALWANDERER

Saturday, June 15, 2002 12:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Quote:
Originally posted by TinyTimm:
A "Colt Peacemaker" is a highly developed piece of technology requiring a skilled gunsmith to properly assemble, time, test and finish.

If fixed ammunition is available even a clutz like me with a crude machine shop and a lathe can slap together a submachine gun.
OK, my ignorance of firearms technology is showing. Please be patient with me in the following discussion.

SNIP

You mentioned "fixed ammunition". Isn't that a pretty sophisticated bit of technology? Easily obtained whever UPS goes. (Which is not everywhere. In central New Guinea, the going rate for local labor is one shotgun shell per person per day.) But how hard would it be to go to a planet with no industry and get everything you need to manufacture it?

And as for your machine shop tommy gun. Well, even assuming it didn't have to fire black powder hand loads, and you'd also thought to import the actual machine shop from an industrial planet -- what kind of materials do you need? Hopefully there's some kind of on-planet steel mill, but will it be able to produce the kind of material modern guns are made of?

I don't think "fixed ammunition" is that complex. Your talking brass and lead - the use of moulds and simple filing and crimping - not that I have any experience as a gunsmith. Plus you would not be working from scratch, you would recognise the need to bring this technology along, it being as much a survival resource as spacesuits/air tanks, hating, food etc.

Now the thing for me with the series is that if I see them fixing complex "black box" technology like radars, engines and stuff, then I am going to be seriously questioning why they couldn't have and maintain at least mid 20th century weapons. If the ship is so well built it doesn;t need much maintenance and its pretty old, then I will be more convienced that gun technology as de-evolved (if that's a word) and the level has plateaued out circa 1870.

All this chit chat makes me really want to know about what the big guns are. What are we going to see? 6 pounders, smooth bore canons, compressed air powered rubble ejectors, high tech missles?

Jason
Sydney, Australia

TINYTIMM

Saturday, June 15, 2002 10:02 AM

Most limits on weapons are legal, not technical.

In many jurisdictions in the United States if you can afford the bribes to the Police and politicians you will only be permitted a 2" barreled .38 Special Caliber Revolver of 5 or six shots. This "encourages" people who want to protect themselves, businesses and families to "hire" "off-duty" police as guards.

Jeff Timm
Who notes the prosecution of a dozen or so "Law Enforcement Officers" in Cleveland, OH, because they failed to pass on bribe money to the Feds.

ZICSOFT

Saturday, June 15, 2002 6:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TinyTimm:
Most limits on weapons are legal, not technical.

Oh gawd. I'm not even going to go there. Let's not have another Second Amendment flame war. There is zero chance that anybody is going to convince anybody else, so what's the point?

Anyway, we're talking technology here. Technology on the Lawless Frontier, beyond the reach of the central government. Presumably that includes the future equivalent of the ATF.

You seem to know more about firearms technology than the rest of us. I wouldn't mind hearing more about that. But I don't think anybody wants to try and catch these political hot potatoes.

TINYTIMM

Saturday, June 15, 2002 7:29 PM

But all life is politics!

The beauty of Babylon 5 was it's acceptance of same. I also loved "The Sandbaggers" when it played on PBS.

It used to be the weapon of dread and politics was the crossbow. Now, you can buy one without a license and the only legal restrictions have to do with hunting seasons in a few states.

Hummmm. Maybe "Polyquazniomic Particle Beams" are heavily regulated and Revolvers aren't?

Jeff Timm
Who does technical things for a Department of the North American Continents major bureaucratic entity.

ZICSOFT

Saturday, June 15, 2002 10:51 PM

Jeff, you're stuck in a rhetorical rut. We already dealt with the legal thing. If you're gonna do the same mantra over and over, you risk inflicting the most vile of online sins: being boring.

This is not the place to seek affirmation for your "From My Cold Dead Hands" sensibilities. Perhaps there's a forum on the NRA web site?

Besides, I hate B5. Nobody talks like that!

SHAMUS

Saturday, June 15, 2002 10:58 PM

Ok. You got me. Zicsoft, do you ever have anything positive to say, about anything?

Nothings exceeds like excess.

ZICSOFT

Saturday, June 15, 2002 11:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shamus:
Ok. You got me. Zicsoft, do you ever have anything positive to say, about anything?

Jeez. How am I supposed to respond to that kind of flamebait? I've said both positive and negative things in this thread and this board. If you want to focus on the negative things, that's your problem.

I do want to hear more of what Jeff has to say about weapons technology. I do not want to waste time on another pointless argument about gun control. Jeff's not obligated to honor my wants, but I'm not going to apologize for making my wants clear.

ZICSOFT

Sunday, June 16, 2002 12:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by feralwanderer:
I don't think "fixed ammunition" is that complex. Your talking brass and lead - the use of moulds and simple filing and crimping - not that I have any experience as a gunsmith. Plus you would not be working from scratch, you would recognise the need to bring this technology along, it being as much a survival resource as spacesuits/air tanks, hating, food etc.

Well, we're both kind of talking out of our depth here, which is why I want Jeff to get out of his political rut and share his knowledge with us. But until he does, I'll just have to guess at the issues and hope I don't look too stupid.

OK, if you have brass tubing and other brass thingees, plus the right machine tools (and you're right, these will be imported once and used to make more machine tools), you can have fixed ammunition. But where do you get the brass? You have to mine copper and zinc, smelt it, fabricate the tubes... I'm not saying a frontier planet couldn't do this, because I have no idea how hard it is. At a guess, it'd be doable, but not in enough quantity so that everybody can have an Uzi.

FERALWANDERER

Sunday, June 16, 2002 3:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Quote:
Originally posted by feralwanderer:
I don't think "fixed ammunition" is that complex. Your talking brass and lead - the use of moulds and simple filing and crimping - not that I have any experience as a gunsmith. Plus you would not be working from scratch, you would recognise the need to bring this technology along, it being as much a survival resource as spacesuits/air tanks, hating, food etc.

SNIP

OK, if you have brass tubing and other brass thingees, plus the right machine tools (and you're right, these will be imported once and used to make more machine tools), you can have fixed ammunition. But where do you get the brass? You have to mine copper and zinc, smelt it, fabricate the tubes... I'm not saying a frontier planet couldn't do this, because I have no idea how hard it is. At a guess, it'd be doable, but not in enough quantity so that everybody can have an Uzi.

Well brass should be pretty easy...I would think that in space (or one of many earth like planet colonies..which raise another lame duck Star Trek problem) they will take stuff at least to be able to refine all sorts of metals...else they won't be surviving very long... Id they are to do more than mearly survive they need to produce energy generators (solar, gas, steam); pipe natural gas, oil, water; provide shelter; cultivate fields (more cmahinery or hard yakka); build all sorts of related infrastucture. And I think this is all stuff that can be done in circa 1870's tech, and perhspas more efficiently with at least 21st century knowledge.

So, again, it brings me back to wondering how good and strong the rational for wheel guns is...

Jason
Sydney, Australia

TINYTIMM

Sunday, June 16, 2002 3:06 PM

Trust me. I have not even begun to Rut Politically. Nor do I intend to.

Firefly is already into heavy politics with those lines about the battle of Serenity. My speculations about those decisions could fill a small book.

Technically speaking however, there are several considerations on the nature of colony worlds. Out in the frontier are colonies the result of planned exploration/exploitation or the result of "We don't likes ye religion, hie ye and the lot o'ye to Massachusetts and call thy selves Pilgrims, John Winthrop!"

If you are a planned exploiter on a smash and grab of local resources, then being kept dependent on an external source for supplies makes sense. Being abandoned by that source because of a war also makes sense. Having to survive after that could send you down to the stone age.

If on the other tentacle, you are forming a colony because the sky where you are is the wrong shade of purple, or the local politicians do something offensive, banning left handed bloop guns comes to mind, then you are going to plan being self sufficient at a resonable level of technology.

On another tentacle, if you are searching for a new world where you can live the simple life. You are gonna have to be real lucky to keep breathing.

Jeff Timm
Who wishes people wouldn't make assumptions about his poly-ticks.

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 NEXT PAGE