The answer to Evolution vs. Intelligent Design
POSTED BY: BadgersHat
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 22:38
VIEWED: 15240
PAGE 6 of 11
I dunno, HK. Maybe I'm just arguing semantics here. But it seems like a lot of people want to have it both ways. They want to say something is real, but if you try to treat it like it is, they tell you it's 'supernatural'.
Now, I'm not dismissing anything in particular here, least of all your personal experiences. I'm just trying to figure out what people mean by 'supernatural'. Because in my mind, if it's real, it's natural. Maybe not common, or even comprehensible to our minds, but part of the whole of reality and at least approachable by science.
I say that with the recognition that for many things science may not be the best way to understand them. Emotions are the best example, you can describe 'love' with all the psychology books in the world at your disposal, but until you experience it, you never really understand it.
I am curious though, how would you characterize the experiences you mentioned, were they 'supernatural'? If so, what does that mean to you?
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Calling something "supernatural" to me is just like puting quotes around it--the meaning is "this here thing is questionable." I'm happier with the term "paranormal." Also, "non-ordinary" is nice.
Science is best at dealing with dead things, physical things; things that remain the same when you take them out of their natural context; things that can't change their minds on a whim; things that aren't conscious. I would go so far as to say that anything to do with consciousness is very unlikely to yield to scientific study because of the phenomenon of volition.
Emotions are an aspect of consciousness. They come and go by their own rules. It is very hard to "measure" them. Laboratory results can be scetchy because people have emotional reactions to the laboratory experience itself. The act of analysis changes the kind of data produced. Psychic phenomena are exactly the same way, only more so. Why should people therefore make the leap to "THEY DON'T EXIST?" Laziness? What people call the "supernatural" is a catch-all for these beings and experiences that I would term phenomenologically "shy;" they only appear under certain conditions--conditions which science has heretofore been unable to quantify.
Rupert Sheldrake is making headway though with his morphic field theory. You should check him out.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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HKCavalier: The reason people make the leap to 'psychic phenomena don't exist' is not out of laziness, but out of logic. People claim to have been abducted by aliens, but for someone outside the experience there is no reason to believe this is true. The same is true of paranormal phenomena - they may indeed be real, but there is currently no reason to believe they are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
HKCavalier: The reason people make the leap to 'psychic phenomena don't exist' is not out of laziness, but out of logic. People claim to have been abducted by aliens, but for someone outside the experience there is no reason to believe this is true. The same is true of paranormal phenomena - they may indeed be real, but there is currently no reason to believe they are.
That's some strange, arid, inhumane logic that discounts the testimony of millions of people over the course of decades, the vast majority of whom have absolutely nothing to gain from lying other than the eternal scorn of folks like you. Sure they may not have all the details right after suffering such trauma, they may be entirely wrong in their analyses, but to presume that all of these folks over the years experience nothing out of the ordinary defies credulity. Is it all just a conspiracy of publicity hounds?
There's all kind of reason to believe people when you haven't experienced what they have--it's called gaining an education. I'm not certain of this, but I'd bet that you're pretty selective indeed with this logic of yours; I'll bet you regularly and without thinking accept the existence of phenomena without personal experience thereof because you respect the source and because it doesn't challenge your cherished beliefs. That you have such far-reaching disrespect for so many of your fellow humans looks a lot more like arrogance than logic to me.
And please, spare me if you will the typical misanthropic pseudo-justifications of the "humans are stupid animals" and "humans are like squalling babies who'll do anything for attention" variety.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Rupert Sheldrake is making headway though with his morphic field theory. You should check him out.
I'll look him up. Maybe I've just constructed an artificially narrow definition of 'supernatural' for myself. What you're talking about seems to be very much a part of the 'natural' world, just not something that lends itself to traditional scientific investigation. Is that a fair assessment?
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
HKCavalier: The reason people make the leap to 'psychic phenomena don't exist' is not out of laziness, but out of logic.
No, Its out of shortsightedness. Quantum Mechanics allows for some pretty strange things to happen, farseeing, telepathy etc. Theres no reason to assume that some day what we presently call supernatural will one day be natural and explained by science.
Once even the rising and the setting of the Sun was a supernatural event, the changing of the seasons were controlled by gods, but now they are simply scientifically explained natural phenomena.
Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BadgersHat:
(which is still expanding,...)
Not just expanding, but contrary to popular belief...accelerating. That's true too and you can look that up as well.
--Jefé The Hat
***************************
Brilliant, no?
10 out of 10 people statistically die in their lifetime.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
HKCavalier: The reason people make the leap to 'psychic phenomena don't exist' is not out of laziness, but out of logic. People claim to have been abducted by aliens, but for someone outside the experience there is no reason to believe this is true. The same is true of paranormal phenomena - they may indeed be real, but there is currently no reason to believe they are.
That's some strange, arid, inhumane logic that discounts the testimony of millions of people over the course of decades, the vast majority of whom have absolutely nothing to gain from lying other than the eternal scorn of folks like you. Sure they may not have all the details right after suffering such trauma, they may be entirely wrong in their analyses, but to presume that all of these folks over the years experience nothing out of the ordinary defies credulity. Is it all just a conspiracy of publicity hounds?
There's all kind of reason to believe people when you haven't experienced what they have--it's called gaining an education. I'm not certain of this, but I'd bet that you're pretty selective indeed with this logic of yours; I'll bet you regularly and without thinking accept the existence of phenomena without personal experience thereof because you respect the source and because it doesn't challenge your cherished beliefs. That you have such far-reaching disrespect for so many of your fellow humans looks a lot more like arrogance than logic to me.
And please, spare me if you will the typical misanthropic pseudo-justifications of the "humans are stupid animals" and "humans are like squalling babies who'll do anything for attention" variety.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
If you re-read my post you should see that I was careful to word it in a manner that I hoped would not offend you, since you'd mentioned previously to have had experiences of the paranormal. I'd appreciate it if you offered me the same courtesy and didn't make sweeping - and offensive - assumptions about my character.
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Well, if I do believe in God (which at the moment I'm not altogether sure about - I'm still forming opinions on that point) I certainly think he did it by starting off the Big Bang - knowing what would happen. Although this does completely destroy ANY credibility in Genesis really. But I disagree with it completely anyway - it was written by some random men who had no idea how God created the universe and thought they'd make themselves more powerful by villifying women - anyway, I'm not going to go into a whole frminist rant, but I just dislike Genesis anyway.
So yeah - if there's a God - I think he started the Big Bang.
Thoughtful FLF(well ish)
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God and the universe may not be seperate of course. Theres nothing to say that God is not the universe and therfore the universe is infact god...
As for Genesis I agree. I believe as I always have that religous texts are stories that give you a guide as to how to live your life, not a literal explination of the beginnings/workings/endings of the universe.
Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.
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