Intelligent Design
POSTED BY: rue
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 17:04
VIEWED: 14833
PAGE 13 of 14
Rue:
Hey man. Way off base there with the new thread. Come back to reality where we talk about things we can never really solve. That's where the fun is. You started the ID/Evo thang, and I haven't seen you posting for about two days. So drop that other stuff about state/gov and come back here with the rest of us.
Really...
Atomkey.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Atomkey:
If we COULD predict everything, then our own 'system' would be a mute thing. What would be the point in doing anything since all things we would ever do would already be known? Perhaps we are in a determined state of random events that coordinate in order for use to NOT realize them? Maybe that's the point afterall. So we live our lives, thinking we are making 'free will' choices when in fact we are making choices that evolution has already determined for us.
I'm afraid I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Or maybe I've not been clear.
What I was saying is that the Computational Equivalence principle says you CAN'T predict everything, or even very many things. Even if you have all the info. The range of processes we can predict is really a very narrow one where the initial conditions are tightly controlled and even then our predictions grow wildly innaccurate over time.
The idea is that to predict most complex processes completely would require as much 'computing' power as recreating the entire universe and playing out the results in real time. The idea of prediction becomes meaningless. So in a sense, things are deterministic, but not 'predetermined'.
Quote:
After all is said and done = both the ID and Evolution foundations require something of us that we may have not yet considered; That one thing being = we have no choice but to participate! Think about it for a moment. If evolution is true = then we are doing (going about, waking, eating, sleeping, etc) at this moment what that 'engine' is meant to ultimately become. And if ID is true, so is the same. How can we say we now have any choice but to go about our own business?
I like that. It reminds me of the Angel quote: "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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SergeantX:
"So in a sense, things are deterministic, but not 'predetermined'."
You got me lost her man... Websters =
pre·des·ti·na·tion = The act of predestining or the condition of being predestined.
de·ter·min·ism = The philosophical doctrine that every state of affairs, including every human event, act, and decision is the inevitable consequence of antecedent states of affairs.
How are you differentiating the two in this case? And I suppose I did miss-read what you were referring to regarding prediction. I get lost in the concept between you, Citizen, and Chrisisall. Please forgive.
I quote:
"...would require as much 'computing' power as recreating the entire universe and playing out the results in real time."
As far as calculating all things = I think maybe the universe is a massive calculator in 'that' ideal. And since it is seemingly infinte, perhaps we should not waste our time on attempting to calculate it ourselves. Perhaps we should just learn to use the calculator the universe has already provided us? Maybe the computer we are looking for is the universe...
Also = I am not familiar with the angle quote. Please enlighten me.
Atomkey
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Quote:
Originally posted by Atomkey:Quote:
"So in a sense, things are deterministic, but not 'predetermined'."
How are you differentiating the two in this case?
"Deterministic", - Depending solely on cause and effect.
"Predetermined" - The result is a forgone conclusion.
But my point was that saying something is 'predetermined', in a sense, carries no meaning because the only way to find out what the predetermined outcome is, is to play it out and see what happens. Most conceptions of something being predetermined assumed that an omniscient being could know the results in advance. The theories I'd mentioned say that's impossible, even with true omniscience.
An interesting implication of this relating to ID, is that it gives plausible a reason for why an intelligent creator, even an omniscient one, might want to create a system like evolution in the first place.
The Angel quote is from an episode. I suppose it speaks for itself. Just Joss sneaking in a little of his existential perviness.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by AtomKey:
Amen... as I reach for my Ouija Board...
Just winds me up is all...
I mean once apon a time the rising and setting of the sun was considered to be a 'supernatural' event...
Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I think the problem is the term 'free will'. I'm not sure anyone's ever been able to pin down a definition that didn't rely on vague supernatural assumptions (that usually lead to contradictions galore).
I don't believe in Free Will per-se, i.e. I don't use the word in the way most people do. Most people seem it to mean that when you make a choice it wasn't made in any form or way until you made it. Personally I think our choices are made by our enviroment, personallity and history working together, so that even a 'snap decision' could have been made months beforehand.
Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
One of the things that occurred to me reading about Wolfram's Computational Equivalence principle, was how it really pulls the rug out from under predestiny. If most processes are already in the simplest state (ie no 'shorter descriptions' apply), then no amount of intelligence could ever predict their outcome, even an awareness of the state of every atom in the system wouldn't do it. This sort of makes the notion of predestiny meaningless.
I doubt that will satisfy those who reject determinism, as they are usually assuming a supernatural soul (somehow) free of causality. But I thought it was kind of an elegant reclaiming of free will without resorting to mysticism.
Being free of causality, i.e. time, is not as weird as you may imagine. Its only our time based frame of refrence that makes it so. Also, you don't necessarilly have to work something out to know where it'll end up. You can reliably guess.
Quote:
Originally posted by SeargentX:
BTW, while we're (or is it just me? ) on the topic, has anyone here read Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by Douglas Hofstadter? I'd think anyone tweaked enough to enjoy this discussion would really enjoy it.
Keep posting books, and I'll keep trying to scrape enough money together to afford them
.Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.
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Well, I'd recommend GEB over the Wolfram book. GEB is a thoroughly artful and entertaining read, even when it is dense and challenging. The Wolfram book, while interesting at times, was very repetitive and fairly dripping with the author's spare ego. Plus, the entire time of trying to read it I felt like he was selling me something. Just something about his presentation didn't set well with me. But I did find some of the ideas, paticularly the ones I brought up here, interesting.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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SergeantX:
Why does the ID link no longer appear from the home page?
Thanks.
Atomkey
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The links on the home page are based on the last time a post was made...
Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Atomkey:
SergeantX:
Why does the ID link no longer appear from the home page?
Thanks.
Atomkey
What Citizen said. Haken has it set up so that only the topics with the most recent posts show on the home page. You can always access older threads by clicking particular category from those listed along the right margin.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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