Alliance - Capitalist or Communist?

POSTED BY: chronicthehedgehog
UPDATED: Saturday, August 13, 2005 12:24
VIEWED: 12105
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DIEGO

Friday, August 12, 2005 1:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

I really, really, really don't want to know how you know that...

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

I've taught comparative vertebrate anatomy, and have cut many a frog open and even stuck pins in their organs and quizzed students on them. The external design is pretty much a mammal thing.

I could tell you all manner of distubing things, but . . . I will refrain. ;)

CARDIE

Friday, August 12, 2005 4:15 AM

In an early interview, Joss said that we only get to see the Alliance through Mal's eyes, and that one way to look at it would be to see the Independents as the Viet Cong and the Alliance as the US. Our motives for being in Vietnam weren't all bad, but if you were someone fighting to be free of all outside powers, we sure looked like evil incarnate.

I think that the Independent worlds weren't necessarily the ones out on the rim where Mal tries to fly below the radar. The "take me out to the black/tell them I'm not coming back" would seem to indicate that Mal headed out for the territories after U-Day. That doesn't mean that some of the more populated planets weren't once on the side of the Independents.

Cardie

BLUEBOMBER

Friday, August 12, 2005 5:18 AM

OK...this is gonna be a rather lengthy response, but....let's look at some definitions.

FASCISM = An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
AUTHORITARIAN = favoring strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom.
COMMUNISM = a political theory advocating a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to his or her abilities and needs.
CAPITALISM = an economic and political system in which trade and industry are controlled by private owners, rather than the state, for profit.

Applying these definitions, the Alliance is not a fascist entity. Though decidedly nationalistic, we see that there are planets that, while under Alliance law, have considerably less of an Alliance presence; that is, the government doesn't have a "direct" hand in its affairs (similar to Constitutional powers deferred to the states in US government). An authoritarian entity would demand complete control over all regions under its domain, but we see that on Jiangyin, Persephone, etc., this is not so. Patience is free to "run her little world" as long as she doesn't directly contradict Alliance law. So, the Alliance is not fascist.

We can also say that the Alliance is not a communist state, since individuals are free to own property and earn money. Mal and Co. deal trade freely (as evidenced in "Safe"), and we also see evidence, at least on some planets, of a middle class ("Serenity," "Shindig," "Ariel," etc).

Given the evidence, the Alliance is closest to capitalism; however, I hesitate to make that declaration with 100% certainty. We are left hanging as to the exact history and structure of the Alliance. I agree with Sargeant X that the information we do have is colored through Mal's point of view. It may well be the case that, 500 years into the future, the Alliance government would take a structure completely different from anything we've ever known (although the historic parallels many of you have brought up to the US Civil War, British colonization of America, etc. are very fascinating to me).

As to the subject of Blue Sun, again, we're left hanging. There is simply not enough evidence to confirm or deny that Blue Sun Corporation is in bed with the Alliance. River's "attack" on the corporation's logo (the cans in "Shindig," Jayne's shirt in "Ariel") isn't enough to support a connection, and so any speculation beyond that is pure conjecture.

OK, I'll stop boring you now. This is a fun discussion!

"Mwah ha ha ha...mine is an evil laugh. Now die."

CITIZEN

Friday, August 12, 2005 3:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diego:
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

I really, really, really don't want to know how you know that...

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueBomber:
As to the subject of Blue Sun, again, we're left hanging. There is simply not enough evidence to confirm or deny that Blue Sun Corporation is in bed with the Alliance. River's "attack" on the corporation's logo (the cans in "Shindig," Jayne's shirt in "Ariel") isn't enough to support a connection, and so any speculation beyond that is pure conjecture.

I don't know, this is a show, not real life (not being patronising bear with me). In Real life those events could really mean nothing, but in a show, specially one by Joss who has shown an talent for 'subtle hints' they, imho, indicate that Blue Sun has a very strong presence in what happened in River.
The fact that Blue Sun logos are literally everywhere in FireFly would also seem to suggest that Joss is setting them up as a strong presence within the story line.

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

I've taught comparative vertebrate anatomy, and have cut many a frog open and even stuck pins in their organs and quizzed students on them. The external design is pretty much a mammal thing.

I could tell you all manner of distubing things, but . . . I will refrain. ;)

I SAID: I really, really, really didn't want to know how you know that...

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

DIEGO

Friday, August 12, 2005 9:13 PM

I SAID: I really, really, really didn't want to know how you know that...

.

Ah, but I could tell you didn't REALLY

really, really not want to know.

Besides, do you see me not telling you other morbid and creepifying things? I think it's quite an impressive feat for a bio geek such as myself!

CITIZEN

Friday, August 12, 2005 9:15 PM

I am warped, you cannot sicken me!!

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

DIEGO

Friday, August 12, 2005 9:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I am warped, you cannot sicken me!!

See? And I knew that like it was via ESP.

CITIZEN

Friday, August 12, 2005 9:22 PM

Its funny, people always seem able to tell that...
I wonder why...
No! I will not feed you now! Back in your cage Britney...

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

BLUEBOMBER

Saturday, August 13, 2005 12:14 AM

Setting aside the question of frog gonads for just a minute...

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

I don't know, this is a show, not real life (not being patronising bear with me). In Real life those events could really mean nothing, but in a show, specially one by Joss who has shown an talent for 'subtle hints' they, imho, indicate that Blue Sun has a very strong presence in what happened in River.
The fact that Blue Sun logos are literally everywhere in FireFly would also seem to suggest that Joss is setting them up as a strong presence within the story line.

While what you say is likely true (the thought crossed my mind myself), I don't like to think along those lines, and prefer to keep my logic in terms of the universe presented in the story. Discussing it in terms of "Joss wrote it that way so there must be a connection" cheapens the experience for me.

Besides, even considering the recurrence of Blue Sun in "Firefly," one can still only guess. Joss and staff may very well have planned a big twist concerning Blue Sun and the Alliance that we wouldn't expect. In fact, I really hope that they do. After all, which is more fun to watch: a plot point that everyone has speculated on and seen coming a mile away, or something new and completely different?

"Mwah ha ha ha...mine is an evil laugh. Now die."

CITIZEN

Saturday, August 13, 2005 12:20 AM

If the plot lines had been allowed to continue, its likely that the twist of which you speak would have already happened .

The refrences aren't that obvious until you look at it alot .
Would we have all seen it before the twist if we hadn't been starved of new FireFly episodes to watch?

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.

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