Capitalism and Firefly
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 16:21
VIEWED: 10053
PAGE 9 of 11
SergeantX, I always suspected that you were a dirty context-dropping, tribalist, mediocritarian, paradox-monger! How dare you question the Power and the Glory that is Rand? Check your premises! (Sorry, just had my own run-in with the Cult of Ayn, hadda get that out of my system
)
Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Free markets and democratic rule both rely on an informed, prudent population to function well. But once you can keep people in the dark...
I was hoping you would respond more directly to my earlier post. I was thinking of you as I wrote it because you are reasonable, compassionate AND a close-up friend of capitalism, and those three in one man is a rare combination in my experience.
It's amazing to me that people can think of capitalism and "an informed, prudent population" in the same breath. Capitalism and deception are inseparable in my mind. Have you ever worked in sales? You have at least been subject to one or two sales pitches in your life. Capitalism has always been about convincing the buyer that he or she needs whatever you're selling. Capitalists traffic mainly in desire. The logical conclusion of such a system is mind control and addiction. Trying to keep a consumer "informed and prudent" in a capitalist system is like trying to keep a drunk sober by boarding him at a saloon.
Democracy fares a little better with the human race because, for most of us, it's a purely amateur venture. The population only has to be "informed and prudent" once or twice a year. I think most of us can handle that. Of course politicians are the "professionals" in a capitalist democracy, so they tend to get pretty warped. The best thing our democracy has going for it right now, to my mind, is term limits. Keeps the power from totally stagnating in one faction for long (hope, hope).
Capitalism needs limits too. Who was it, Thomas Payne? who proposed at the framing of the constitution that corporations should be limited to a term of 8 years at which point they'd have to be liquidated? Back in the day, "Liberal Government" seemed to be the answer to the problem; limit capitalism in the name of the poor, the environment and the unlucky.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Hi HK,
Just a short quip
Quote:As my BIL says, if that stuff is so good, why are they trying to exchange it for your money?
Capitalism has always been about convincing the buyer that he or she needs whatever you're selling.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Quote:I can't speak for other countries, but I've worked with the public here in the States most of my life, and that 99% seems a mite high to me
Originally posted by rue:
But if that's true, what about the 99% of humans who aren't? (globally) Are they not human?
In a Buddist way I have to acknowledge that there is no bad I've wittnessed in others that hasn't had it's time in me, too; I just wish more people would spend more time trying to let go of crappy baggage, instead of trying to hold onto, and justify their posession of it.
*Hey, where's my capitalist greed?!? Whadda you mean it got put on the wrong plane???
I knew I shoulda carried it on....*
If a tree falls on Chrisisall, can he make money sueing the forest?
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somewhat related to the topic of Firefly, and systems of Government, is this link to a libertarians support of our BDTV show (I know we have a lot of libertarians at this website):
http://www.affbrainwash.com/archives/020132.php
I thought you guys would find it interesting.
And regarding humans 'evolving' past greed...
please.
We've made no headway in the LAST 500 years
(or in the last 3000 years)
so I hardly think we can expect to be over it in the next 500 years.
Particularly in the USA where we use up most of the world's resources in our selfish pursuit of our 'life-style',
we can hardly pretend there is anyone here who isn't pretty greedy.
Join my crew: Fairfield Fireflies
http://browncoats.serenitymovie.com/serenity/index.html?fuseaction=gro
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That was a great link, thanks, embers!
It also reminded my why The Undescovered Country and Insurrection are my favourite Trek flicks; The Federation is portrayed as being falable, not the benevolant and perfect entity it is most of the time.
Socio-economical Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
And regarding humans 'evolving' past greed...
please.
We've made no headway in the LAST 500 years
(or in the last 3000 years)
so I hardly think we can expect to be over it in the next 500 years.
Particularly in the USA where we use up most of the world's resources in our selfish pursuit of our 'life-style',
we can hardly pretend there is anyone here who isn't pretty greedy.
Wha-huh? I know all kinds of people who aren't particularly greedy at all. Myself for instance. What are you talking about?
And individuals "evolve" out of addictions every day, arguably more in the United States than anywhere else on the planet, ironically. Alcoholism used to be nothing but a big joke on prime time television, now corporations pay for their employees' rehab. Fat people used to be nothing but funny. Smoking used to be nothing but cool. Debtors Anonymous is a growing movement.
It's interesting to note that the term "workaholism" has entered popular awareness at all. Addiction awareness seems to enter public consciousness like a grief process: first there's denial-drinking makes you cool; then there's bargaining-sure alcoholism exists, but only affects the bums on skid row (that's when all the joking starts); then there's anger-prosecute drunk drivers to the full extent of the law!; only after you recognize how truly destructive the drug is, usually only after it's affected you personally, do you then think about giving it up.
That's where "hitting bottom" comes in. Some alcoholics need only piss off a few friends before they get clean. Some have to run over school children, before they stop. Some people don't hit bottom until the addiction kills them. That's the mystery of recovery.
Workaholism is still transitioning from denial to bargaining, just a decade or two behind sex addiction. Sure, hardly anyone is taking it too seriously today; many people still proudly call themselves "workaholics," but more and more of us are embarrassed for them when they do, thinking about the wife and kids this jackass is neglecting. But the day is coming when the deleterious effects of compulsive working are catalogued and named. The "high" produced by exceeding unrealistic expectations won't be something managers can be unselfconsciously proud of. Already, a growing number of people are voluntarily "down sizing" their careers to focus on their mental and emotional health and on their real lives.
It's a process. Consciousness is evolving at a faster and faster rate every year. There are fewer and fewer places to run and hide, Embers, the truth is coming for us all!
In the meantime, it's gonna be a pretty bumpy ride for all of us.HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Wha-huh? I know all kinds of people who aren't particularly greedy at all. Myself for instance. What are you talking about?
I was talking about the fact that the US does less recycling than any other country on the planet, but uses more energy than pretty much everyone else combined.
Do you know anyone who actually tries to conserve energy or water?
Do you know anyone who is driving an electric car, using only bio-degradable products, or avoids poluting the planet?
I would say that hogging the resources of Earth and destroying the enviornment is all greed...the by products of greed.
I'm just saying that when I have visited Europe I have been struck by how much more careful everyone else is compared to how wasteful we are.
Join my crew: Fairfield Fireflies
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Ah.
So you recognize that in some way greed is at least affected by upbringing. My contention is that if it is modifiable, it is not intrinsically human nature.
As to the 99% who are not greedy: roughly half the world's population is just trying to stay alive.
Most of the rest are just trying to get by. And for those not on the edge of survival, what do they spend their days doing? Do live by cheating strangers out of their stuff? Or steal? Are they constantly plotting against family and friends? What is it that they DO that's greedy?
If they are greedy, then it is some limited circumscribed version of greed.
Most people I know would be happy with a secure livelihood (not handout). They're not looking to have it all - they're looking to always have enough.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Quote:I do. About 10% of the people where I work do this as well.
Do you know anyone who actually tries to conserve energy or water?
Do you know anyone who is driving an electric car, using only bio-degradable products, or avoids poluting the planet?
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
Do you know anyone who actually tries to conserve energy or water?
Do you know anyone who is driving an electric car, using only bio-degradable products, or avoids poluting the planet?
LOL! You are sooooo asking the wrong guy! I practically live on a commune! An all American commune, I might add!
Don't personally have an elecrtic car, but choose not to own a car and take public transportation to and from work. Dude, you gotta get out of the 'burbs and see how people really live! LOL!I'm sorry, I don't mean to be mean, I realize that what you're talking about are very serious issues within our culture, but if you knew me, you'd be laughing too!
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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